Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

The timekeeper didn't screw up ,Walcott did not know where he was, his fault for not ascertaining his position before the fight started.

 

Actually it was Nat Fleischer ,at the request of the timekeeper who made Walcott aware that the timekeeper had counted Liston out.

 

I think it was a fix Liston was told to take a dive and before the fight he told his friend and sparring partner, don't bet on me.
I don't think Ali had anything to do with it.

 

Nope immediately after the fight ,he told his brother Rahman, "he laid down".

 

It may have been hard enough to drop him I dont believe it was hard enough to keep him down for ten and Liston never denied he could have gotten up earlier.

 

I can tell you . Zero!

 

What has that to do with whether the ko was genuine or not?

 

Don King wasn't even involved in boxing in1964 and 65. Do some research FFS Fella!

 

Why do you KEEP listing people who didn't throw the punch, feel it land or take the punch? It's inconsequential and very weak proof of anything. The better proof is coming DIRECTLY from the person who threw the punch, felt it land, and has forgot more about boxing than everybody here.... He said " Get up, nobody is going to believe this". You don't say that if you genuinely believe you landed a KO punch or when you have no suspicion somebody is lying down. Which again, you still failed to address.

 

First of all do we really know what Ali stated? Did you hear him say it? If YOU can’t hear him say it how do you know what was indeed said? Also even if true Many things are said in the heat of the moment that do not represent reality.

Second of all we have tons of data that points to a legitimate KO. Eye witness expert testimony. Read the SI article. It’s all there. Ali koed multiple opponents with the same type punch. Over and above all this both bouts were investigated and no evidence was found that they were fixed.

The uneducated love conspiracies. In real life conspiracies are very rare. In this case the evidence clearly points to Liston being koed by a punch he never saw coming.

 

What do you mean, he's never denied that's what he said, and since you love second hand testimonials, people overheard him saying it, and lip reading "experts" have claimed the same. No, you don't get a pass by saying, well, plenty of stuff gets said in the heat of the moment, that is NOT CLOSE to good enough. I could even EASIER say, the people claiming they say a punch land, did see it from the right angle, didn't feel the impact of it and generally have no fing clue how hard the punch really landed, and it would be factually true. Yet somehow you're really on THAT kind of proof to override something that came DIRECTLY from the horses mouth. "Get up, nobody is going to BELIEVE THIS" Again, do you say something like that if you believe you landed a KO punch and believe Liston will do everybody in his power to get up? Simple question.

 

I think a 3rd option is possible: As I mentioned before, a punch can travel a couple inches and carry unusual power and leverage. Sometimes the stars align and you just so happen to throw the perfect, sharp, accurate punch right on the button. To Ali it might not have seemed like it was enough to drop liston but it may in fact have been enough. Liston did not see it coming. Was he too hurt to continue? Probably not, and im saying that as an Ali fan i think liston simply quit not wanting to be further embarrassed. Its entirely possible that it was a genuine knockdown, Ali himself didnt even realize how good the punch was, AND liston chose to stay down (either to avoid punishment or because he bet against himself/was threatened).

 

It doesn't "violently" jerk his head.Wev'e all seen the blow land .dozens and dozens of times ,and in slo mo.I think he laid down to orders .
George Chuvalo was so incensed he got up and shouted ,"you stink"
"The onetime toughest man in the world crumbled to the canvas as if he were giving a safety demonstration on how to fall without hurting oneself. “Get up, you yellow bum. Nobody will believe this!” screamed Ali. When boxers land a crushing blow, they know it. Ali experienced no such feeling. When he walked back to his corner, the first thing he said was, “He laid down.”

At that moment, everyone in boxing knew that the indestructible Sonny Liston had taken a dive.

Joe Louis compared the punch to “throwing cornflakes at a battleship.” Former champ Jack Sharkey said the punch couldn’t have cracked an egg. Veteran trainer Eddie Futch simply said, “Give me a break!”

 

You have no idea if those specific words were said. Words in the end are just words especially if said in the heat of the moment.

We are talking experts... one of boxing’s greatest trainers and two champions. They say it was a KO blow. Add to it those sitting around these experts including the SI writer.

Liston staggers mid ring once the bout is stopped and people are milling into the ring.

Listons trainers stated Sonny asked for smelling salts for the first time ever in his dressing room with no outsiders around.

Listons head and jaw distort from the force of the blow.

Listons Lead foot is lifted off the canvas by the force of the blow (see Bud Schlburgs book regarding film analysis of controversial sporting events for frame by frame details)

Listons legs appear to spasm as he turns over onto his back.

Fight was investigated and no evidence was found that it was fixed.

Thus evidence is clearly on the side of a legit KO.

 

Exactly. People are using the fact that he got up to imply it wasn't a fix. It's not like he could've stayed down there forever