Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

Yes we do know, because Jerry Izenberg heard Ali shout them! You have heard of Izenberg?

 

Wrong Torres never said the punch ko'd Liston or was strong enough to do so, indeed he expressed doubt that it was!
Joe Louis,George Chuvalo,Muhammad Ali,Jerry Izenberg ,Jack Sharkey,and Eddie Futch.did not think it was a big shot. Ali turned to his brother in the corner and said "he laid down"!

 

Yes they have Jerry Izenberg who was ringside, its in his book ,"Once Were Giants".

 

A book written decades after the event is not a contemporary source. Still waiting for an explanation of how Ali could shout something that strange and that suspicious, loudly enough to be heard at ringside, and not a single reporter thought it was worth mentioning.

 

You keep talking about what other said about a punch they didn't throw, didn't feel it land, nor feel it's impact and acting like this is some monumental proof of something. It's not, in fact, it's a very weak from of proof that is easily contradicted by other fighters and experts who adamantly claim it was not a KO blow. So why are you giving your "experts" more credence than the ones who said the opposite? I'm sure that is an answer I'll never get. Be that as it may, you still can't get around the fact that Ali himself didn't believe it was a KO blow and made that known DURING THE FIGHT and AFTER the fight. He said, get up you bum nobody is going to believe this... then later said after the fight was stopped, he laid down. Would you agree Ali would know the severity of the blow more than anybody watching on TV or at ringside? Yet you want to discount that because it was in the heat of the moment? WTF does that even mean? He wasn't in the heat of the moment after the fight when he said he laid down, and even in the heat of the moment doesn't mean stuff said isn't factual. Many times in the "heat of the moment" people say stuff that is bluntly true and not mincing words. In fact they can be more factual considering nobody is filtering their words. Yet somehow you're trying this "heat of the moment argument" to prove that Ali was mistaken, but fighters at ringside or watching it on a screen couldn't be mistaken on what they saw and their impact? Do you even believe the stuff you're typing? The evidence imo, is clearly on the side of Liston laying down, and that it didn't do the damage Liston was making out. So Liston's comments that he could've gotten up and it didn't hurt me, let me guess, counts less than other fighters watching a blow they never felt or threw? This is like comedy gold in how you shouldn't weigh evidence when forming a logical conclusion. You put more value on something that should have less value, and thus your conclusion is just as unsound as how you got there.

 

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So you're posting proof that Liston could've gotten up and the blow wasn't hard enough to cause him to flail away and roll around the ring giving his best acting performance. Ummm thanks?

 

The bottom line is that the evidence as presented points directly to a legitimate KO. You taking comments during the fight by Ali that he may or may not have made is Bull****.

Watch the fight! See two right hands...One earlier before the KO blow shook Liston to his heels as per Jim Braddock and Cus Damato. The KO blow jerked Sonny’s head and jaw violently.

Liston after the fight “I did not know he hit that hard”.

The bout was investigated at that time and no evidence of a fix was found.

 

You quoted liston DIRECTLY saying he could've gotten up. If somebody could've gotten up, what does that mean, IT WASN'T A KO BLOW. There can be no other confusion. Then imagine we see an arm punch not land with much force, then see Liston flailing away and rolling all over the place, taking peaks over at the ref to see why he's not counting him out, and then goes well I guess I better get up. Then after the fight says it wasn't hard enough to keep him down. So what is the logical conclusion there... It wasn't hard to keep him down. Directly from the horses mouth. We have Ali also SAYING "get up, nobody is going to belive this" then later saying "He laid down". Which again is consistent with Liston saying it wasn't hard enough to keep you down. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE, with the two people who exponentially know more about the blow than anybody else. Neither believed it was hard enough to keep him down.

You yet again failed to address my questions or explain how your logical deductions make any sense. So I accept your concession that the proof actually isn't on your side, you keep saying it does, doesn't make it so.

 

Its a contemporary source because he was ringside watching the fight! OMG! Jimmy Cannon heard it too!

 

Half the people here don’t even know what an arm punch is, or to put it more gently, have differing opinions of what an arm punch is.

The “phantom punch” is far less of an arm punch then, say, Golovkins knockdown punch on Jacobs. So claiming the phantom punch was an arm punch doesn’t say much at all.

I never said that every single person who thought it was a fix believed the punch never connected, so technically I am correct. It is your lack of reading comprehension combined with your desperate attempts to find faults in other people’s posts which is the issue.

For example, the statement: “people who like green apples also like red apples” doesn’t mean that every single person who likes green apples likes red apples. “All people” wasn’t explicitly stated.

We are gutting this fight to the n’th degree are we? Then why didn’t you mention Walcott’s involvement? Or Fleichers? Should I call you confused? Because based on your guidelines you’re beyond confused, and a hypocrite.

Not including the detail of Ali throwing punches at Liston had absolutely no bearing on my simple, short, concise description of what occurred.

Just another needless discrediting tactic you attempted to ego people. Cool agenda.

https://streamable.com/lx4pw

How is this “doing just fine?”

Or “doing a damn good job slipping the punches?”

He’s dazed, in a shell.

Again, nothing I said wasn’t factual. The only issue here is you choosing to battle people over inconsequential details that you’ve arbitrarily decided must be included in a specific post.

Again, to hold yourself to your own screwed up logic, you’ve missed many key details of the fight. Maybe you should take a look in the mirror instead of insulting others.

So you’ve decided people have to pay the price of good knowledge posted by others here by being the target of random ego assaults from the likes of you?

It’s like saying, “you know even though I might kick you and punch you for going down the slide, this is actually a great playground.”

Basically you’re an ass.

 

Did he? When did he say so?

 

In his dressing room after the fight Liston said he could have gotten up but was waiting for Ali to move away and Walcott to start counting. Verified quote.

 

I guess that some time in 1965.
Are you saying Izenberg is lying?

 

What evidence would you expect to find, a signed confession from Liston?