Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

Shkor was outpointed 14 times in his 52 fights and not always by top tier men.What is your basis for stating he was plenty skilled?

 

No, Ali had two fights with pressure type of fighters to warm up for Frazier. Ali was only 29 years old going into this fight. Ali hated Frazier, insulted him, and was on his own personal crusade to beat him. Simply stated Frazier took it to Ali, badly hurting him in round 11, and flooring him in 15.

If the fight was scored on the 10 point must system, Frazier wins by a even wider margin.

 

I think it's evident on film that the Ali of 1971 wasn't as fleet of foot or as speedy or fluent in his punching as that of 1967.

Frazier beat him fair and square but I don't think that his two warm up fights serve as sufficient opportunity to work out the kinks and get as sharp as you need to be to face a primed Frazier.

Ali's mouth is Ali's mouth and has no bearing on his actual ability to repeat what he said he could do in the 1970s. Is it possible that a lot of the verbal was to give himself an air of self-confidence, to build up anticipation to draw a large crowd and his attempt to psyche Frazier out?

It doesn't matter to me whether Ali was 29, 19 or 39, you don't take an Ali, Roy Jones, SRL, Floyd, Lomachenko, Tyson or any other fighter who blends defence, speed and reflex together in the ways that these fighters did/do out of the ring for 3 1/2 years, put them in the situation that Ali went through and expect them to come back to fight the obstacle that Frazier posed that night and expect them to look just as good as almost 4 years ago with just two warm-up fights.

 

How do you think an Ali in his 20's does against a Ross Purrity? A 30-year old Ali against McCall?

 

Ali had 18 rounds of boxing in the previous 4 years.He never hated Frazier WTF!
What happened once Ali had shed the 4 years ring rust and had more bouts under his belt?

 

Wlad had fought17 months earlier and had been active without a 4 years absence.
Lewis had fought 1 year earlier and again not had an enforced absence from the ring.

 

It will be interesting to see how Usyk fares against Joshua and the rest. An elite boxer and ring general utilising movement and guile against much bigger, stronger opposition. Obviously Ali and Usyk are not one and the same but they share enough similarities to warrant comparison even if no conclusions could be drawn.

 

I agree. Ali was still close to his prime at 29. However, as a speedy fighter, he wasn't as fast as he was in 1967 vs Williams.

While i agree that the first Frazier fight is still in Ali's prime (albeit in the later part of it), you seem to be ignoring the styles make fights arguments. Lewis would be a favourite over Frazier and especially over Norton.

But there is no way McCall or Rahman could ever beat Ali, let alone with one punch. They would be lucky to win more than a round vs Ali. And Ali isn't losing to Sanders or Brewester either. I would give Frazier at least a punchers chance vs the bigger men whereas none of the guys who beat Lewis or Wlad would even have a remote chance vs Ali.

 

Then you're wrong.

 

lol haha, i am crying from laughter here. Giving Lewis a shot to beat Ali is fine but Fury and Joshua? Hilarious. '

BTW, i would not consider Wladamir super skilled. Bowe was a big heavyweight with super skills, particularly on the inside. Lewis was highly skilled even though i think he is slightly overrated in head to head match ups.

Wladamir is the most overrated heavyweight of all time- and his super skill consisted of leaning and excessive clinching. The Povetkin fight is an exmaple of that. He clinched more in that fight than Ali did in his entire career. Frankly, Wladamir should have been disqualified for that. A young Tyson or indeed most great heavweights would have destroyed that Wladamir (unless of course, the referee allowed him to get away with such tactics)

Wladamir's reign is the weakest in the last 80 years out of all notable heavyweights.

Lewis beat Ruddock, Tua, Morrison, Mercer, all good heavyweights.

Holmes beat Norton, Witherspoon, Shavers, all good heavies

Holyfield beat Bowe, older Foreman, Tyson (still a decent version), Mercer, all good ones

Ali? need i say more. Ali's second rate competition was better than Wladamir's best one.

Calling Wladamir super skilled is an insult to actual super skilled heavyweights like Lewis, or even Bowe. Bowe may have underachieved but his signature wins over Holyfield eclipse Wladamir's entire career.

 

You make some valid points. It would have been interesting to have seen Wlad against the Top Heavys today: Joshua, Fury and Wilder. Indeed Wlad benefited greatly from a weak era.

 

Or the fighters in the 1970's were simply much better than the fighters he fought in the 1960's. I could buy into the 1960's Ali being faster. Yes--the films show us that, yet that guy in the 1960's was caught by Banks, nearly KO'd by Henry Cooper, and had his hands full with Doug Jones. He also and fits vs Patterson.

I think the truth is Ali just wasn't good keeping people off of him and had issues with good jabbers. Frazier's feet were hardly stuck in cement. Frazier was a dynamic attacker to which the 1971 Ali had no answers for. In the re-match, Ali adjusted with excessive clinches.

IMO, Ali's survivability skills, rule-bending and durability are underrated. His boxing ability and defense, a bit overrated.