Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

I'd rather leave Joshua, Wilder and Fury out of a conversation with Ali.

Who have they beaten, besides very old top ten opponents in Wlad ( 39,41 ), and Ortiz ( 38-43? )

Joshua has a somewhat proven resume. The win over Whyte looks good, but if he looses to Povektin ( age 39 ), we have no top heavyweight.

Wilder is a fraud for a champion. He struggles badly, and once he faces a top ten guy in his prime will lose.

Fury was a guy who had the stars line up for him, being at his very best mentally and psychically for one fight.

Wlad actually beat a host of fighters more proven than the above three, and did it when they were in their primes over the course of ten years.

2008 > 2017

Ring Magazine 2008 Annual ratings

1. [url]Wladimir Klitschko[/url]
2. [url]Vitali Klitschko[/url]
3. [url]Ruslan Chagaev[/url]
4. [url]Alexander Povetkin[/url]
5. [url]Nikolay Valuev[/url]
6. [url]Sultan Ibragimov[/url]
7. [url]Samuel Peter[/url]
8. [url]Oleg Maskaev[/url]
9. [url]Juan Carlos Gomez[/url]
10. [url]Alexander Dimitrenko[/url]

Ting Magazine annual ratings 2017
[url]Tyson Fury[/url], Champion - Has beaten no one since his comeback

1. [url]Anthony Joshua[/url] - Worthy
2. [url]Deontay Wilder[/url] - Very untested vs the top ten, struggles vs top 15-50 types
3. [url]Joseph Parker[/url] - Doesn't want to risk much
4. [url]Alexander Povetkin[/url] - old
5. [url]Luis Ortiz[/url] - old
6. [url]Kubrat Pulev[/url] - Sei old
7. [url]Andy Ruiz Jr.[/url] - Not very good
8. [url]Dillian Whyte[/url] - A contender in his prime who can punch
9. [url]Dominic Breazeale[/url] - Terrible
10. [url]Jarrell Miller[/url] - A fleshy man who can move but can't punch hard.

 

Fair assessment - I struggle with this one myself. It's a bit like Tyson or Louis or many other HW greats. You very rarely get an elite fighter whose peak performance comes at the expense of another great fighter who also looked in excellent condition.

Ali of the 1960s was definitely a faster fighter and yes, he did have his struggles, but at his very best (would you disagree that he improved after Liston I?) he looked excellent on film. In the 1970s, Frazier and Foreman definitely stand up as excellent fighters. He had to show things that he didn't really have to do as much in the 1960s - I am of the opinion that him doing them in the 1970s doesn't mean that he couldn't do so in his prime.

I don't think Ali's durability is underrated - I think his chin is a tad overrated (arguably, Foreman, Tyson, Chuvalo, McCall have better chins for pure one-punch-power punch resistance), but his his ability to survive and take shots to the body is deffo underrated.

I think his boxing ability and defence benefit from the halo effect of his speed and athleticism, however, I can find evidence on film of him doing all of the orthodox defensive moves well, both with reflex, headmovement, head placement when jabbing and even parrying and elbow blocking, pivoting and angling off to protect his chin.

Out of interest, you said that you rank Ali as #1 HW - may I ask what skillsets on film, which fights and which opponents you see on his record that make you place him there?

 

In my view, Wlad has not faced the likes of Joshua, Wilder and Fury in his era, when he was prime. Because of their height and skills, they would present huge challenges for prime Wlad.

How would Wlad react to Wilder's scary punching power. We all know that Wlad was the better boxer but he also had a glass chin.

How would prime Wlad have dealt with the slick style of Fury and the height disadvantage? I could see Fury pulling this one off.

Similar questions would be raised in a fight against Joshua.

Interesting fights to say the least. Wlad is giving up his height advantage

 

I think Ali's durability is under rated. He took a heck of a body shot, and his ability to recover from a bad moment is pretty impressive. Shavers for example really hurt him. Ali acted his way out of it. Its not easy being a fighter when things go badly. Ali could weather storms with his legs, his body, or by fooling a weaker minded fighter. If that didn't work, he was a strong clincher who could work a crowd and " get away " with stuff. Only stopped once in a long career, facing many punchers I think says it all.

I really don't have a true #1 at heavyweight, and I think Ali would lose his share to the best pressure fighters on styles or to the biggest skilled jabbers. But in the end, he still has the best overall wins and resume of wins, which is why I give him the top spot. Had Foreman fought Holmes instead of Young and beaten him, he's my #1. I also think Holmes would defeat Ali.

Ali's best filmed fights to me are Liston 1, C. Williams, Frazier 3.

 

It's clearly their fight in the 70's you're thinking of. No sane person would say Ali had "fits" with Floyd when they met in 1965 (no, Floyd's back problems in that fight do not translate into Ali having fits with him), but their fight in 1972 was more competitive.

Actually Floyd said that Ali of '65 was better than Ali of '72. Chuvalo said the same thing. He said 60's Ali was faster and had a higher workrate. Basically what we see on film.

 

Yeah, too bad we didn't get to see Wlad against those guys in his prime. Wlad's game was all about controling range and that of course gets much more difficult when you don't have the reach and height advantage. I felt that Fury really could trouble Wlad, without taking Wlad's age into consideration, because he had the height and reach advantage and negotiated range really well for such a big guy. That's why that fight was the first one I watched live (on tv) since Wlad's fight with Haye.

 

We saw Wlad, age 41 out of the ring for 1.5 years nearly beat Joshua, who's considered the best today.

Big fighters didn't bother Wlad. He bombed a collection of big guys in Pulev, Leapai, Pineta ( who Fury took the distance ) and Austin, easily out pointed Wach and beat a defensive minded jab guy in Thompson.

 

Yeah, the 2nd Patterson fight gave Ali fits. Patterson had back issues one of those fights. Which one was it?

I disagree, back issues affected Patterson performance.

Chuvalo was 34 years old for the second Ali fight, and it clear speed gave him more issues than power, so his comment makes sense.

I think Ali in the 1970's was a better puncher, a better counter puncher and a better clincher. All of this can be seen on film.

 

Pulev was a decent big man who only lost to Wlad. Pretty much the same story for Thompson during his prime.

I don’t think Pulev was ever as good Wilder, Joshua, or Fury, but if he had the UK hypetrain behind him, he would be a much more highly regarded win. I do think he’d be competitive with the best version of Fury and only a small underdog.

Wlad also have a mountain of evidence to suggest that he would’ve beaten Joshua if he were in his prime.

 

I love how you always bring up the Taylor fights when discussing Hopkins, but with Wlad age suddenly becomes a factor.

But, yes, Wlad was past his very best. In great shape, though, moved and punched more than in any other fight I've seen of his. And Joshua was only in his 18th fight and had met preciously little top class opposition before Wlad.

Wach was the only one of them who was bigger than Wlad, and just a little bit. Leapai was 6 inches shorter.

 

I'd feel pretty safe betting that the Joshua who beat old Wlad also would beat the Wlad who was in 18th pro fight.

 

Joshua wasn't prime either and lacked critical experience in two major area's - facing a seasoned veteran and fighting on a stage as big as Wembley for the first time.

Wlad knew Joshua wasn't ready which his why wanted to challenge him before he got better - Wlads words , not mine.
The way the fight played out proved no Wlad would ever beat a Joshua since he got outboxed for the first 4 rounds and was almost stopped in the 5th.
A totally novice version of AJ showed better tactics and skill by attacking Wlads body early , a move that would play dividends in the late rounds.
Wlad knowing that Joshua showed lapses in stamina in previous fights never threw a single body shot and the man had 20 years fight experience.

Prime Joshua that is lighter in weight and isn't prone to gassing out for momentary stints , would finish Wlad in that 5th round. No Wlad ever had any inside game to compete with Joshua.
His level was his level, this new generation of HWs are beyond the Euro level Wlad was. Wlad was essentially a HW version of Felix Sturm.

 

The best big guys he fought defeated him.

 

I'll agree with this completely.

I'm not sure whether it's partly weaker minded fighters or the mystique of the Ali media job, a mixture of both or that the media hype job contributed to opponents that bought into the legend and psyched them out before the fight began. Fighters are ordinary people and are exposed to the comments, the media speculation like anybody else. I watch an out of shape Ali have fighters sit off him and not pile on the pressure as you might expect and I can't help but wonder if the play acting is less weak minded-ness and more some of these fighters being in awe of him. They would have seen him against Liston and would have seen him versus Frazier and Foreman.

I like Ali's adaptability and skillset see him win a best of series against any HW fighter that there has been so far. Frazier and Tyson always give him trouble, but I think Frazier's intensity gives him tougher fights against prime Ali, whereas Tyson's speed and explosiveness gives him the greater chance of forcing a stoppage with an extremely cautious referee. I can't give Marciano more than 2 fights out of 10 and am unsure about Dempsey's chances. Joe Louis would take 3, maybe 4 fights out of Ali. I genuinely believe that Ali always beats Foreman, Liston and Patterson. Lewis has the best chance of taking fights off of him out of the best fighters of the last 30 years due to size, strength, skills and power. Holy could box with him, but I don't feel that he is quick enough, punches hard enough and is smart enough in the ring to beat prime Ali. Holmes and Ali could either be the best chess match series ever or the biggest and dullest fight series to watch. It could play out like Leonard v Benitez but without the end result. Nobody here gets knocked out and whilst I really like Holmes, I feel Ali's speed, reflexes, more fluid movement, quicker shots and elements of showmanship do just enough to get decisions on the judges' scorecards.

Is there anything that he showed you in the three aforementioned fights that see you making the case for his H2H credentials, especially Liston I and C. Williams? Do you put more value in his demonstration versus C. Williams than his demonstration verus Terrell?