Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

Apples and oranges. Joshua already fought a few decent fighters before Wlad and it’s unlikely that Joshua will undergo the same amount of improvement as Wlad post-Brewster (few do).

 

Not counting age 39 and 41, which other big guy over 240 pounds beat Wlad?

 

Fury and Joshua are the best big guys on his record and they both defeated him. By schooling in Furys case.

All the other big guys he faced were non athletic C levelers comparable to the guys Mike Tyson used bowel over when he was 10 years old.

 

No, comparing a prime Wlad with some 50-60 fights under his belt with Joshua in his 18th pro fight is apple and oranges. Comparing two Olympic gold medalist with the same amount of pro fights isn't.

Who knows if Joshua will improve as much as Wlad did. But he has in all probability already gotten better and will continue to improve.

 

Wlad had 45 pro fights by the time he fought Brewster I. The only improvements made to his game were house refs in Germany who allowed him back hump his opponents to death.

 

Sounds like a messy way to win.

 

I think Ali's durability is under rated. He took a heck of a body shot, and his ability to recover from a bad moment is pretty impressive. Shavers for example really hurt him. Ali acted his way out of it. Its not easy being a fighter when things go badly. Ali could weather storms with his legs, his body, or by fooling a weaker minded fighter. If that didn't work, he was a strong clincher who could work a crowd and " get away " with stuff. Only stopped once in a long career, facing many punchers I think says it all. - Mendoza

I think Liston tanked it. Fraizer > Ali when they fought closest to their primes. Foreman's limited gas tank and poise was a stark contrast to Ali's durability and intangibles.

This is where we differ greatly because I think Ali did not have a great skill set. He could not in-fight well. He threw few body punches. He threw an ugly type of hook and seldom used that punch. He had a very fast jab and solid right hand, but his weaponry is rather limited. Essentially he was a 2 punch head hunter. Because he lacked big time power, he failed keep many lesser talents off or take the fight out of them by tagging them hard enough. Defensively he was tagged a lot, because of his guard and style. The opponents jab and home found its home often. Ali wasn't tall enough simply to lean back and get out of the way vs. men over 6'2" tall with some skills.

Larry Holmes to me was far more complete on offense, and just as tough. Lewis or Wlad had a better arsenal by far.

While I agree Ali had excellent durability and intangibles, none of them helped vs a good boxer he could not hurt, this above all else is why I think he'd lose to the best super heavies because every single one of them was better than Norton, and probably more durable as well.

Norton was a stark contrast to Frazier in many ways because he was versatile in attack. Norton wasn't a left hook only type. He had a jab, Cross, hook, and one heck of a body attack, AND unlike Foreman he wasn't going to gas nor was he slow.

Not really. He showed guts when he could not see in the first Liston fight. Dundee saved him, Ali was ready to quit. But Ali found his courage and weathered a storm. Cleveland Williams was shot, Ali just looked brilliant on offense that night! Lewis, Wlad, or Vitali would have eaten Terrell up and beaten him sooner.


The last thing about Ali, is be believed he was fighting for more than money or pride. He was also fighting for a cause. Any man who fights for a cause is harder to defeat. Ali used his gift for the gab as a microphone for his issues armoring himself for his battles in the ring. I think this got to Liston, and Foreman, neither of whom had a high sense of self worth. But did nothing vs Norton, a marine or Frazier a true grinder.

Ali was smitten by the Black Muslim movement in the USA which was a radical and a sometimes racists type of movement. Young boxing fans might be floored to learn that Ali really was not a popular man in the 1970's. He became popular thanks to the media tying him in being anti Vietnam war and being a civil right type of icon while completely ignoring/whitewashing some of his speeches.

I'm 99.999% sure if the Black Muslim group felt it was important for their movement to fight in Vietnam, Ali would be there. In fact, they feed him some lines to say to the press.

 

Joshua has looked fairly mediocre in his fights since Wlad. If you wamt to create a fantasy driven version of him that doesn't exist and probably never will, be my guest.

 

Ignorance on display again. Wlad improved is stamina quite a bit, going from overly muscle bound to a more cardiovascular build. Remember, Wlad did not have Steward for Purrity, and barely worked with him for Brewster 1.

Defensively Wlad developed quite a bit under Steward. His guard became higher, essentially taking away the left hook, his footwork became better, and yes, he learned how to clinch.

 

So now it's fantasy that a fighter with only 17 pro fights behind him (44 rds in total, I think) has a large room for improvement? Ok, I feel pretty secure in that fantasy.

 

By resting on his opponents back reducing 3 mins of combat to 1 minute of combat.

I remember you said Joshua had reached his ceiling at 19 fights and wouldn't get any better , yet you're claiming Wlad was still improving 45+ fights into his career.

Ignorance you say??

 

Frank Bruno? Razor Ruddock? Tucker? Tate? They don't always get better. Lewis and Wlad are two big exceptions.

 

Ffs, are you really arguing against that a fighter with less than 50 pro rounds that goes up in level of comp is very likely to substantially improve? Man, this is getting silly.

I can add, that while I would expect most to improve quite a bit under such circumstances, I'd expect t Joshua to improve even more since he got into boxing so late (at 18).

EDIT: And those examples aren't very good btw. Tucker won his belt after about 35 fights and Bruno after about 45. Ruddock was on about 35 fights when he faced Tyson.

 

I don't understand your obsession with 17 fights. Joshua had a solid am career and had beaten a few contenders before fighting Wlad. There is no guarantee that he'll continue to improve.

Tyrell Biggs peaked at 15-0 after taking a gold medal.
Tyson basically hit his peak within two years of turning pro.
Bowe peaked before age 25.
Povetkin, to this day, doesn't have a better win than when he beat Chambers years back.

Time will tell whether Joshua improves, stays at his level, or declines.

 

You and I and everyone on this board knows that someone with less than 20 fights and 50 rounds and who has been training boxing for about 10 years still has a substantial room for improvement. We also all know that there are exceptions, as there always is; cases when fighters due to brutal beatdowns, injuries, bad habits and often a combination of two or more of those, doesn't fulfill their full potential and decline early on. It happens, but it isn't the norm.

We all know this, and you're acting like you don't just not to concede a point. And thereby embarrassing yourself and wasting my time. So I'll end this particular discussion with you here.