Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

TOT's vary by up to 4 inches!

 

You should watch the fights I mentioned. If you do, you'll agree that Ali had trouble with good jabbers, even when he had a height and reach advantage, or a speed advantage.

Foreman seldom used his jab vs Ali. His performance is correctly described as poor in the rumble in the jungle. Sloppy with a low gas tank, and foolish punch management.

Terrell was slow and had an eye injury, and even if he was a decent jabber, he wasn't in the class of the others quoted! In other matches with a healthy eye, Terrell looks faster.

Its hard to tell is Liston was in there to win or not, but I will say that is Ali's best performance.

The three examples you used did not have much speed, so maybe Ali did better vs the slower jabbers.

You Dad is pretty much correct in my opinion on the jab.

As for Joshua, he's much faster than Foreman. Of the four, that would be the one Ali is most likely to beat. But I'd put a lot of money on either Klitschko or Lewis out jabbing Ali, and he wouldn't trade right hands with them either. None of the four would have to worry about Ali's left hook, it was a slapping type of punch for the most part, and neither would have to worry about his in-fighting or body punching. A clinch? That won't help Ali either as he's giving up about 30's pounds. Ali's holding behind the head worked with a shorter Frazier, that game is out of the question vs. a skilled super heavyweight.

Expecting them to gas as Foreman did won't work either.

 

Are you seriously using the Ali that fought Holmes as an example? The version of Ali that was completely shot, and was already showing signs of Parkinson's? And the same L Holmes that was almost 10 lbs lighter than Ali and was the same height. And your insinuating Holmes was a super heavy? Please do some research before you spit out outrageous and completely untrue nonsense.

 

Ali is likely to beat all of them.

Lewis outjabbing Ali? Please watch the second Holyfield fight. That is the closest thing to Ali that Lewis ever fought. Holyfield was shorter than Ali, did not even have close to the speed that Ali possessed either with hand or feet, nor the reflexes, and could only fight in spurts. Yet Lewis barely beat him the second time. The same Holyfield was struggling vs John Ruiz the next year.

Lyle was not fast but Ali was 33, and far from his prime. He still won. The Ali of 1967 is a different beat all together.

I have yet to see an explanation of why Lewis struggled more with decent "small" heavyweights than with bigger guys like Grant. McCall and Rahman were neither big punchers, nor very good boxers.

Lets look at McCall as an example. He lost to Douglas, Tucker and Bruno, barely beat an ancient Holmes, and yet ko'd Lewis. Ali would be embarassed if he lost to a fighter of that caliber. McCall wasn't Earnie Shavers, so he shouldn't have had a punchers chance. The less said about Rahman's accomplishments the better. He wasn't a Shavers or even Lyle in punching either.

The 6'2 past it Mercer, the 6'2 blown up past his prime cruiser in Holyfield gave Lewis in his prime a hard time. Yet Ali, who is superior to those two in every way imaginable, will apparently get outboxed.

Can Lewis fight at the workrate that Ali could sustain? Based on? Ali could fight 15 rounds at pace. Watch how fresh Ali was in the 15th vs Terrell. Lewis did not have the endurance to fight with full intensity for 12 rounds. Ali in a 12 round fight is even more dangerous.

Wlad lost to 6'2 Brewester and 6'3 Sanders. Lewis struggled more vs decent guys who were in the 6'2 to 6
4 range than he did vs bigger guys. Yet Ali, at 6'3 is appearently at some sort of a disadvantage. I don't see it. Ali beats them to the punch, dances in and out, and outworks them.

Lewis or Wlad cannot land anything on Ali that Foreman or Shavers couldn't. And even if they landed their best shots, they aren't knocking him out.

 

same height as Ali, and their 10-15 lbs over Ali doesn't make them significantly bigger. Neither one of them were physically stronger than Ali. Nor were they better punchers. Nor did they have his endurance.

Nor were they even very good fighters. As i mentioned, McCall was a very average fighter. So is Rahman. There is no excuse losing to average fighters, especially when neither one was a huge puncher.

The guys who gave Lewis his toughest decision fights were smaller than Ali. Mercer was 35 and past his prime. He did not have anywhere near Ali's speed, endurance or all round ability. Holyfield was smaller than Ali, did not even have the endurance to fight 3 minutes a round, and Lewis barely edged him in their second fight.

I am not merely talking about the guys who beat him. I am also talking about the guys who took him the distance who were both smaller than Ali and nowhere near his caliber as boxers. Holyfield, even in his prime, did not possess Ali's blinding footspeed or handspeed. And the guy who was on the verge of struggling to beat John Ruiz was far from his prime.

Its not just Lewis. Brewester was smaller than Ali and ko'd Wlad. Sanders was the same height as Ali. Joshua's best win has been over a past it Wlad. He is too unproven to ever be favoured over Ali.

My point stands. Lewis dispatched of big guys like Bruno, Grant and Golota. Yet he struggled vs guys smaller than Ali in a past it Holyfield and Mercer. The 6'3 Mavrovic, who Lewis clearly beat, took him the distance and won a few rounds of him. And Mavrovic was far from a world beater.

Again, the narrative that Lewis's size is an advantage is wrong. Lewis's size is an enormous disadvantage vs ALI. It makes him a big easy target for Ali to land on. Ali can maintain a fanatical workrate in a 12 round fight. Lewis can barely maintain a high workrate for 8 or 9 rounds, let alone 12. Ali possesses handspeed that Lewis has never seen in his pro career, not to mention he is twice as fast on his feet than anyone Lewis ever faced. Ali wins by lopsided decision.

 

Perhaps, I may have seen more Ali footage than you assume.

I am not saying that Ali never had trouble with good jabbers - I am saying that virtually every fighter that's laced up gloves has had some sort of trouble with a good jabber at some point in their career.

Foreman - the guy who steamrolled Frazier and Norton - is supposed to jab and pace himself against that version of Ali? In what universe - the wonderful thing about hindsight is that it makes us all the greatest trainers that ever lived. Ali fought a wonderful fight and I have never fully bought the whole gameplan to tire Foreman out as has been mythologised. Raising it as something that the others wouldn't fall for or gas during the fight is a moot point, seeing as if you look at the first round as McGrain pointed out in a great thread about the fight, Ali shows educated diagonally retreating movement, walking Foreman into the right hand. The plan was to dance and control ring centre, in a similar manner to Liston I when Ali has ring centre, is boxing off of his jab and pivotting and angling off to keep Liston having to reset his feet. Ali found that the footspeed and ring cutting ability of Foreman was too good to do so on that canvas, so he backed up, rode punches, blocked punches and beat Foreman's wider punches with sharp straight counter punches. My general point is boxing is a lot more complex than anybody with a good to great jab beats Ali.

None of the fighters mentioned carry Foreman's footspeed, ring cutting ability or his natural aggression. Given the circumstances of their careers at that point, why would Foreman fight in a more educated, conservative manner against an Ali that looked a semblance of the man in 1967?

To call Terrell merely a decent jabber seems disingenuous. He was rated as having an excellent jab and certainly outjabbed Foster during their fight. He does look faster in other fights and yes, an eye injury is unfortunate, however, this is boxing for the HW title - sometimes, bad things happen and you have to overcome. I think the eye injury would have been uncomfortable and whilst affecting punch output and defence, the jab should not be so drastically hampered - I also think getting hit a lot from multiple angles made him gun shy and tense. Any fighter knows that when you are too tense in the ring, your punches don't flow as well, you telegraph more, you see the punch but can't release the trigger like you want to, especially if you are overly concerned with what you are going to get hit with in return. There are several moments during the fight where Ali's headmovement and distance negotiation completely take the Terrell jab and right cross completely out of the fight. One can make a case that psychologically any winning thoughts were taken out of him and he became more focused on surviving than committing to achieving a knock out or boxing his way to a decision.

Ali doesn't have to jab with Wlad, Vitali, Lewis or Joshua - he's faster than all of them and is more ring-proven. He can slip and counter or beat them to the jab, pivot, angle off and force them to reset their more ponderous feet as they try to establish their own rhythms. He's most at danger if they are stepping in with the jab and given what we know of their careers, I would favour him to come up trumps against all of them. Lewis gives him his toughest fight. Vitali does better than Wlad due to effective awkwardness. Joshua may throw faster than Foreman, but I'm not sure that he's faster of foot or as educated in cutting a ring. I don't see Ali in his prime having to resort to the clinch in the same way that he did with a shorter Frazier - by the way, Ali also manipulated Foreman in the clinch. He is stronger than given credit for and perhaps, more vulnerable than most would care to admit.

 

I read the " modernist " write about modern training with weights, modern supplements and diets but we've seen A.Joshua having to rely on his youthfulness and 2nd just to get out of the 5th rd against an old an well past prime Kleichkos. He was completely tired. Wasnt for his youth and 2nd wind what would've happened? Some on this site get so caught up on the modern fighters size, you completely miss the lack of skills they show. You don't ask the question can they actually fight? Or are they just a better athlete than their opponent? Being physically big and strong doesn't make a fighter great . A prime example is E.Holyfeild. as Holyfield began to bulk up, his hand speed , coordination, and endurance declined significantly. Big bulky muscled heavyweight boxers tend to tire much quicker than heavys that have not used weights. And it's not a new phenomena look back over heavy history their have been many big muscled heavys . But how many became champ? The human physic can only do so much. So yes of course a 250 lb. Man will be physically stronger than a 200lb man. But will he have the speed or endurance of that 200lb man? Especially if that 250 lb man was heavily muscled. Moving all that extra muscle and weight will cost a fighter. If one gains a lot of size and strength he will lose something just as important. Question, when was the last time two big Super heavys engaged in a war similar to the pace of Ali vs Frazier 1? Or Holmes vs Norton? The Heavyweights in today's fight game completely lose technique by the 5th or 6rd, but their is J.Frazier throwing that perfectly timed, perfectly placed, damn near perfect technique left hook in the 15th rd against Ali putting him on his Ass. But Ali popped right up, and was ready to go within a couple seconds. Old and well beyond prime Holyfield gave all 6'5" 240 lb Lewis Hell. But posters on this site think Lewis would beat a prime Ali? Hell I have serious doubts he would've beaten Holyfield closer to his prime based on their actual two fights. Lewis didn't overwhelm Holyfield, didn't blow him out. The breeze from the many right hands Lewis landed on Holyfield didnt blow Holyfield out the ring. And again that version of Holyfield was well beyond his best. I have yet seen a heavy that I would favor over Ali from 65 to 68. Very few would've beaten him from 70 to 74. His biggest challenge in my opnion would be a prime Holmes, or Prime Tyson. Not these big heavys that would be tired after a few rds of chasing him. Hell, Ali would be smart enough to know to float like a butterfly a few rds, let the big gorilla get tired, than proceed to sting like a bee, when big man is breathing harder than a fat man trying to run the Boston Marathon. The "Super Heavys of today are still human after all.

 

Rahman is one of the strongest guys to ever step in a boxing ring.

 

And so was Ali. He pushed Foreman around, not an easy feat.

Like i said, Rahman and McCall were average fighters who usually lost when they stepped up in competition.

Put it this way. Had Holmes or Ali lost to Shavers, it would make sense. Yes, Shavers had a weak chin, lost many fights etc. But he was known as a power puncher. Therefore, it is somewhat excusable to lose to him. And Ali and Holmes both beat him.

Rahman and McCall were not known as big punchers. No excuses there.

 

Great post! VERY informed
About what some others said_McCall & Rahman were average for World Class fighters
Still had HW punches especially Rahman: who was stronger than Ali for sure but in functional in ring grappling strength Ali could hold his own against most anyone
Though he did it to Foreman with lost of illegal holding & pulling down behind the head
Oliver may have had the GOAT chin

The comparisons to some HWs the BIG guys faced & had such trouble with makes a good case for Ali>

 

Why go back all the way to 2011 when you keep banging on and on about today?

2018

1 or 2 - Deontay Wilder (214 3/4)

 

Maybe you just don't realize how slow Ali would make the bigger guys look. Even the 70s version of Ali would be too quick with much better coordination. I do believe out of all of these Super Sized Heavys Lewis had the best all around game. He could give Ali some trouble if he could lay a glove on him. It would be tough catching up to the Greatest.

 

No. Ali was 33 years old and he was clowning with Lyle most of the fight. No concern at all. When it was time to get serious he stopped Lyle. Ron had been a sparring partner for Ali. He wasn't much of a threat.