Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

these are different days for heavyweights with so many of them being so large but how many of them really were great? Lewis? Vlad?, Vitali? Joshua? Wilder? Fury? Can we say with certainty that these men would get past Louis or Ali?

 

Is this a joke?
Peak Ali had a better defence, better straight right (though the one Holy landed on Douglas was a classic) and MAYBE better feet and MAYBE a better jab, Holy's double jab matched up well against Douglas & Holmes and Bowe and Lewis at times.
At his peak Holy had great feet..and I mean GREAT.
HOWEVER
Bodywork
Uppercut
Hooks
Inside fighting
All belong to Holy.

In fact outwith his insane need to brawl, Holyfield had the best all round skillset of ANY heavy in ANY era.
He could do it all and guys like Louis, Ali, Holmes all had holes in their skills.

Know your onions young man!

 

You are a good poster.

I actually rate Ali #1 overall, but that includes legacy. We are talking head to head. I think you selling all three short.

Lewis was extremely versatile in attack. He had a hook, jab, cross and uppercut, and could in fight and out fight from ANY range using his power and an 84" reach. Maybe he could be iced by one punch from a puncher, but Ali's not in that class of a puncher.

Vitali wasn't just awkward, he was very hard to hit clearly, and had a way of landing and getting out of the way with the ability to land at angles or even going backward. He's also very tall, with fast feet, and had a very high punch output. A reason why he never lost more than 3 consensus round on any score card as a professional. Ali lost more rounds to Kenny Norton alone. Ali is not out landing Vitali.

Wlad was a master jabber, with a laser like right hand who could control the distance and tempo of a fight as well as anyone. He's short hook was devastating and he was an even better clincher than Ali.

One thing you can't get past is Ali's difficulty with good jabbers. Doug Jones, Kenny Norton, Ron Lyle, and Jimmy Young. He lost several rounds to each man, and I just fail to see this slip and counter from Ali vs them. So how can you say this slip and counter it would work vs better / bigger fighters? It doesn't wash. Terrell was slow with limited power, it worked vs Terrell, but I don't view Terrell as highly as you might.

Lewis, Vitlai and Wlad were not fools and had even more height and reach, not to mention power over these four, so saying Ali would avoid and score with ease or even with some success does not hold water nor was it ever proven vs. the best jabbers he fought. Its that point that I think you miss more than any other.

Ali had quite a few flaws. No real hook. No real uppercut. No body attack. His defensive style left him open to left hooks. He also fought too often in spurts, a reason why he dropped many rounds to lesser boxer types that I did not even bother to mention. Ali also wasn't in top shape, his fault, and a flaw.

Wlad and Lewis did not have top chins, but it took a hard hitter to test them.

To close if you took all of Wlad's, Lewis and Vitali's fights, excluding age past 38 ( So I'll take out Holmes ), these skilled super heavyweight were never beaten on points! Ali was beaten on points, and IMO lucky to get the nod over Jimmy Young, and behind in other matches such as Ron Lyle where he came back to win.

Again, ability to win rounds, power, height, reach, offensive versatility, in addition to a fine jab which most certainly gave Ali trouble makes him perhaps an underdog in these matches. Ali could not count on them gassing ( Foreman ), getting hurt from a guy on his power level from one punch, or being tied up ( Frazier ) to win.

Larry Holmes rule. How old was Holyfield when Toney beat him? Bad example. Ali had brittle hands? That is news to me, but if he did, its something else he would need to over come.

Unless you think Lewis, Wlad and Vitlai are fools, the rope a dope is a non factor. Foreman gassed early, a reason why Ali won, and he was easy to hit tired and wide open on the counters. He couldn't even see straight right hand as a lead coming. The Rope a dope only cost Ali rounds vs Lyle. And it would likely do the same vs Lewis, Wlad or Vitlai

You sample is mostly shorter guys, or people 30 pounds less. Ali could not keep Chuvalo off him and Chavalo wasn't quick on his feet. Where is this jabbing and controlling the action? Ali won cleanly on points but sustained more damage. Patterson, who gave Ali some trouble was older with back issues. Terrell had limited power and was slow that night. Liston wasn't in there to win and we don't know his age. I had the 1st fight 3-2-1 for Ali before Liston quit, and consider that Ali's best performance. Sonny was slower handed by the mid 1960's

I think you are over stating Ali's jabbing to the body or hooking to the head. He seldom did it. He clinched not to upset rhythm, but to take a rest and because he could not keep fighters off of him. Ali used to clinch Fraizer behind the head, and got away with something like 70+ times according to Eddie Futch. He's not clinching these three.

Yes and No. Ali looked terrible in the 220's. If you give him 15 more pounds, he's not as fast and probably lososes a little of his steam.

If you had examples of Ali doing this vs. good jabbers or hall of fame level super heavyweights, I'd agree with you. The other point is you using the mid 60's mostly to buttress your points. Those were just a few years, and the competition for him wasn't that good.

 

superskilled? wlad jab n grab is superskill? ok

 

Mendoza, McCall and Rahman were not monstrous punchers, neither one of them had impressive kos over top heavyweights, they were average hitters

 

Nice to see some love for Holyfield. We need to mention Ali's utterly insane speed as well. 67 Ali definitely had better footwork and he had a better jab than Holyfield tho we can say Holyfield's is underrated.

 

Holyfield was great. But saying Ali "Maybe" had better speed is inaccurate. The 1967 Ali is the fastest moving heavyweight that ever lived. Holyfield was quick but not nearly as quick footed as Ali.

In terms of handspeed, only Joe Louis, Floyd Patterson and Mike Tyson were comparable to Ali. ALi had faster hands than Holyfield.

Besides, a 37 year old Holyfield who was a year away from struggling vs John Ruiz was far from peak. He could only fight in spurts. He did not have the endurance to maintain a high work rate for 12 rounds.

Ali could maintain a high work-rate for 15 rounds, watch the Terrell fight.

There is no contest between the 1967 Ali vs the 1999 Holyfield.

 

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McCall is the only guy to knock out Akinwande.

 

there is no doubt McCall and Rahman were both strong 230 lb men. But were they big punchers? No

Ali is the only guy to ko Foreman even though Foreman fought other notable punchers like Lyle, Frazier, Cooney, and Morrison. Yet no one considers Ali an overpowering puncher.

Ali was a good puncher. So was McCall. McCall stopping Akinwande doesn't make him an enormous hitter since AKinwande didn't exactly (from memory) face a lot of the great punchers of the era- Tua, Morrison, Tyson, Ibeaubuchi, even older Foreman.

 

Every fighter has flaws and yes, Ali does have many of them but he was the greatest in spite of his flaws. I consider head to head extrapolation in my rankings as well as skills demonstrated on film and fight record.

Ali in his prime was in top shape. The Ali that you are describing is the Ali of the 1970s, outside of his prime, slower metabolism, believing his own hype, becoming a lazier fighter and trainer. A flaw and one that I have already critiqued but not something that he demonstrates in his prime.

Yes, he fought in spurts in the 1970s, but it is my contention that in his prime, he had the stamina to keep a high pace and fight with anybody in my opinion, especially considering that none of these fighters will swarm him like a Tyson, Dempsey or Frazier.

Ali is not knocking them out - I don't believe that he has to.

These skilled superheavyweights fought far inferior fighters to Ali. Their not being beaten on points does not translate to Ali cannot do it.

I don't put as much stock in their ability to outbox fighters of lesser overall formidability than Ali. I do put stock in Ali's ring record and contend that if I am wrong in my beliefs, I am comforted in his finding a way and I evidence that by what his skillset demonstrate to me as well as the intangiables that I can infer throughout his career.

I believe that Ali recognises the live threats that they pose and fights accordingly - brave, educated boxing and respecting their power whilst withstanding what comes his way.

I was merely using Holyfield as you brought up Larry Holmes and being a tad flippant to demonstrate the flaw of such example if considering the prime self in a head to head match up.

I should have qualified my statement. I remember reading years ago (can't recall where) about a later Ali having issues with sitting down on his punches because of sore hands and receiving novocaine injections from Ferdie Pacheco. I shouldn't have said brittle - either way, this isn't something that a prime Ali needs to worry about.

As I originally stated, I think the Rope-A-Dope is nothing more than good marketing and some fact-most mythology.

Ali caught Foreman clean with right hands and jabs in the first round due to superior speed. There is no shame in Foreman getting hit with an Ali right hand lead - he was still a very fast puncher at that stage of his career. Roy Jones, Floyd, Hearns and other speedsters hit very good boxers with right hand leads.

Ali promoted Rope-A-Dope and bought into the hype. He tried it and clowned around with Lyle and yes, to his detriment and yes, this was a flaw. I personally believe that he didn't show Lyle enough respect but note that he turned it on when it counted and got the win. A prime Ali doesn't do this with Lewis, Wlad or Vitali so I don't look at it with the same eyes that you do.

What I see against Chuvalo is an Ali that had been thought to not be able to take punishment, exposing his mid-section to Chuvalo's attack and seemingly taking the punishment to no ill effect. That he pissed blood allowing Chuvalo to wing on his mid-section is no surprise. Ali's durability to the body is proven and Chuvalo is one of the first fights that he really shows it.

Ali's jab, which was clocked faster than that of SRR's own, landed on Patterson's forehead like a corkscrew and jacked his back up. Patterson's style and speed gave Ali some issues to resolve - he resolved them. Liston wasn't in there to win? In his title defence? I don't think Liston was in there to lose and his efforts whilst Ali was visually impaired don't look like the efforts of a man that was content to just pick up a pay-packet. Ali's headmovement took away his jab - Liston's best success was to the body. Ali puffed up Liston's face - if Liston had continued, I dare say, he may have been stopped. In this fight, you can clearly see Ali dominating the exchanges of jab, jabbing to the body and hooking to the head, flustering Liston with combination punches, dancing and pivotting off of the ropes, angling off to protect his chin, using a conventional guard when close to Liston, as well as fighting with his hands low, parrying punches and elbow blocking shots to the body.

Ali came out against Liston with jabs to the body, countering jabs with lead left hooks. In his younger years, he used these punches and footspeed to change levels, find new angles and to avoid counterpunches.

Clinching to take a rest often upsets an opponent's rhythm, stops them from throwing their own punches. Ali clinched everyone behind the head where he could. With these three, they are the bigger fighters so it may well be the case that he has to wrestle with them a bit more or that he realises that he cannot match them for pure power so he employs another tactic. Every elite fighter got away with bending the rules at some point. Floyd pushes his forearm in faces. Evander headbutts. Lewis holds and hits.

The Ali that you are proposing is an Ali out of his prime and in inferior condition. I am imagining an Ali born in Lewis' era with the advantages of boxing-specific weights training, better nutrition putting on the additional weight in a more natural way that the 1970s Ali who was softly conditioned and sapping his own strength by losing too much weight too quickly for fights in his last years.

I think that Ali's handling of the Liston jab shows that he could deal with a jab. You seemingly don't.

I have no evidence of his doing it verus superheavyweights as, you rightly know, they weren't around. You also have no evidence of a superheavyweight besting Ali as none fought a fighter of Ali's elite level.

Here's where I think we differ the most:

I use a 1967 Ali because to me that was his prime. The Ali of the 1970s may have faced better competition in Frazier, Norton and Foreman, but the Ali of 1967, at least to me, was a better fighter. I extrapolate what he proved in the 1970s as demonstration of the intangiables that the 1967 version always had internally.

Again, I don't think I will convince you and it is not my intention to do so to be honest. I don't believe that you can convince me and I am not sure that it is your intention to do so.

 

McCall had big power. His limitations kept him from indiscriminately knocking people out.

McCall: First to ko Lewis. Iced a young Maskaev in a round. Only man to ko Akinwande. First to stop Seldon. Also stopped Damiani.

Morrison: No stoppages of note unless a BS stoppage of an irrelevant Ruddock while gassing counts.

Old Foreman: Stopped Moorer, Adilson Rodriguez and...coke binge version of Cooper.

Ibeabuchi: Byrd while Byrd was doging punches. Nothing else.

Give McCall his due.

 

Mike Tyson. He was the closest to Ali in terms of handspeed and footspeed. Although his style was radically different, he was a more powerfful puncher, and fought more agressively.

There isn't anyone who is stylistically similar to Ali except for Larry Holmes. And Holmes was from the tail end of the Ali era. Holmes moved nearly as well as Ali, had a slightly better jab, was equally mentally tough and clever, had fast (although not quite as fast) hands.

The best heavyweights post Holmes have been Lewis, Holyfield and Tyson in no particular order. I don't rank Wlad that highly but he is probably #4 since then.

 

I see you ignored the rest of my points, ala overall skills, hooks, uppercuts. Holy is by far the better all round fighter, and like I also said "best all round skilset in the history of the division"
Both were dropped by Coopers but I reckon Holy would stop Ali.
He's a better fighter than Norton, Frazer etc..

 

Mendoza is, as usual, highly biased and agenda driven. But I do agree with him that Ali would find it hard against these guys.

I don't see Ali KO'ing them (not impossible, but unilkely imo) and they were very hard to outbox. It should be said that old Holy did well boxing Lewis in their rematch, though. Yes, he was roided up to the gills most likely, but still didn't have anything close to the speed and timing of a prime Ali.

I feel pretty certain that Ali would both win and lose in series against these men. Well, perhaps Wlad could blank him. Extremely, extremaly hard to outbox Wlad with a substantial size disadvantage. Nigh on impossible imo. A stylistic nightmare for Ali.