Ali vs skilled super heavyweights

A prime Holy didn't come close to stopping a 42-year old Holmes, but he would stop prime Ali?

 

Usyk, in terms of speed and movement for me. He's a more fundamentally sound fighter than Ali, though.

 

This. Guys like Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko Brothers, and Joshua existed back in the days.

Lennox Lewis is 6'4" and Wladimir is 6'4" 1/2. Joshua is 6'5" 1/2.

https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/le/lennox-lewis-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/kl/wladimir-klitschko-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/jo/anthony-joshua-1.html

A past prime Holyfield gave Lewis all he could handle in both fights and Holyfield even at his best isn't half the fighter Ali was. Wlad wouldn't be able to bully Ali and would most likely get stopped by Ali in the later rounds. Vitali would quit against Ali. Joshua has potential, but is extremely too green and would get stopped by Ali.

 

This wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer. Yes, Holy was better all round and better fundamentals. I do believe Ali's punching and combinations are sold short, though. Walcott called him the best combination puncher of any HW he'd ever seen, and if one go behind the modern myth of Ali only flurrying and actually watch his prime fights one can see why.

But still, Holy was the better all round fighter. No argument there. But as you say, Holy was a better all round fighter than almost anyone and still he lost clearly to Bowe in his prime and struggled with many less than great fighters (Steward, Dokes, Cooper, old Foreman, old Holmes) in his prime. So Moorer, Ruiz etc aren't even included among those.

That just goes to show that all round game isn't everything. Ali's greatness lay in that he was so, so exceptional at what he did best and mostly managed to keep the fight where he could work to his strengths. And if you are going to bring up post prime efforts like Frazier, Norton etc, expect to get Moorer, Czyz, Ruiz etc showed down your throat. We're talking pre exile Ali here. Whose timing, reflexes, coordination and overall speed I've never seen equalled at HW - to go along with a great boxing brain and a legendary will to win.

We're talking primes here. And smack at his peak, Holyfield actually looked more taken to the brink by a 42-year old Foreman than a post prime 32-year old Ali did with a 25-year old one. Ali toyed with his best contenders in his prime. Holy won, but through labored efforts.

This despite being more fundamentally sound and all round than Ali. Why? Because Ali was an exceptional talent. There were fighters that were more all round skilled and fundamentally sound than RJJ when he was around, but he toyed with them because he was just that talented.

In most cases the guy with the better all round game will win. But not always. Sometimes it's trumped by pure talent.

That's the case with Ali and Holy imo. Ali and Holmes too, for that matter.

 

Fallacious? More like fellatious.

It sucks.

 

You'd think their argument would be a lot more polished.

 

Sorry but if Foreman and Shavers can’t stop Ali, Holyfield has zero chance

 

It's been said to you on multiple occasions that many of us believe there is a point of diminishing return per size. Guys around 185 would have it up against them fighting guys around 200+ but guys around 200-235 can basically hold their own against anyone in the opinion of many of us. Sure there may be a rare exception based on stylistic factors.

We aren't talking 185 pound guys vs average or poor big guys we we are talking best vs best, top shelf vs top shelf.

Is that easy enough to understand?

 

Lewis is 6'5, Wlad is a touch under 6'6 and AJ is a touch under 6'7.

As for Fury, he's about 6'7 and a half, not the 6'9 as often listed.

 

If they think this they don't know their boxing.

Dempsey sparring with 6'6" 235 lb Bill Tate

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Marciano completely clobbered Johnny Shkor, who was 6'4" 220 lbs, which is the same size as Lennox Lewis and Wlad.

 

There is a huge difference between a 185 lb guy fighting a 250 lb guy and a 215-220 lb guy fighting the same 250 lb guy.

As i have said many times, before, Ali was the same size as McCall and Rahman, same height and similar reach, just 15 lbs leaner.

Ali was naturally bigger than Holyfield who, past his prime, gave Lewis a hard time. And Ali was naturally bigger than Ray Mercer who gave Lewis an incredibly hard fight.

Ali is bigger than Brewester who ko'd Wlad.

Therefore, the evidence is in front of you, however you choose to ignore it.

 

Lennox and Wlad were damn skilled, Johnny Shkor was 30-18-2 when he faced the Rock and already served as a stepping stone for a number of contenders. Rupaul is 6’4” but that doesn’t make him Lennox Lewis.

 

Lennox and Wlad are 6'5" with shoes on. Throughout their Olympic careers they were always listed under 6'5", but as pros they were listed at 6'5"+ for marketing purposes. Riddick Bowe is also 6'4" 1/2 and is the same height as Wlad, but Wlad is known for wearing lifts. Also, Fury is most likely closer to 6'6" 1/2 and 6'7" with shoes own, since he was the same height as Carmelo Anthony, who is 6'7" with shoes on.

Wlad and Bowe
https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs..._gen/derivatives/landscape_900/1290744555.jpg

Fury and 6'6" Carmelo Anthony
https://www.proboxing-fans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tyson-fury-carmelo-anthony.jpg

Joshua and 6'8" David West - West easily has two inches on Joshua.
https://www.nba.com/warriors/sites/warriors/files/getty-images-961537324.jpg