Ali Vs Tyson

I think Holmes is a better representation of the Buster Douglas blueprint that was mentioned earlier, as Holmes seemed to be longer, more powerful, and more like the Douglas that beat Tyson. Ali would beat Tyson by grabbing Tyson whenever he gets too close, moving, and simply out-doing him on the outside game. I could see Tyson winning by knockout, but the more likely scenario is that Ali outboxes Tyson, beats him up more and more as the rounds go on, and stopping him late- like the eleventh or twelvth round. To beat Tyson you have to whip his ass thoroughly for many rounds. Ali could potentially do that.

Ali KO12

 

Why, because he survived the 12 rounds?


Watch the fights. Foreman is a slow, sitting duck that's constantly being beaten to the punch, counter punched, outslugged, outboxed. He manages to take a few rounds where Holyfield takes a rest because of the size disadvantage and that's it. At no point did Foreman look like he was winning or even competitive.

Tyson took the fight right to Holyfield and Holyfield was on the defensive during the first 6 rounds, hurt on a few occasions and he clinched Tyson about 15 times a round. Compare that to how often he had to clinch Foreman and you know which fighter he had more trouble with.

 

I think you have to refresh your memory. Folley (at 35) was even with Ali untill his glass chin gave in.

 

Tyson eats some of Ali's jabs slips enough of them to get in his punching range. Tyson by stopage round 8 or latter.

 

Holyfield won comfortably on points, but in the last round he was so tired he ha trouble standing up (as was Foreman). That's no easy pay-day.

 

I agree. Ali could do what Douglas did but better.

 

Yeah, but Ali gave away the first two or so rounds by just feeling Folley out, as he often did. Ali-Liston was even as well on the cards after 6 rounds, but that doesn't mean the fight was very even.

I think you know yourself that Ali did pretty much what he wanted against Folley. Judging by his comments afterwards Folley himself didn't seem to think it was very competitive.

 

I agree that he didn't go 100% early on, but he certainly did not tell Foley "hit me with those right hands please". Foley was landing them pretty well throughout the entire fight. Or i should say, the entire 7 rounds.

 

Folley was that kind of fighter that could trouble Ali, technically and tactically sound. It's not like Ali played with him, Folley did get a couple of decent shots in even if Ali rolled with most of them, but he had good control over the fight. You could see from an early stage that he was looking to land that straight right over Folleys jab, and that's what he did. Mission accomplished. But Folley was a game opponent. It's a nice fight to watch from technical and, especially, tactical standpoint.

 

i'm a big ali fan,idolise the man but i've always thought tyson could give him all the trouble he could handle,especially in the first half of a fight.some try to make a frazier comparison,but tyson wasn't a pressure fighter in the frazier mould,and bore no comparison on the inside.tyson did most of his damage from mid range,and it is speed which i think gives ali the most trouble.maybe apart from patterson tyson would have been the quickest handed fighter he would have faced and of course there was great power allied to that speed. also early on mike was quite nimble on his feet,with good head and upper body movement and i think he definitely could have landed on ali with his rushes.i do see ali seeing this through though and i think it is in the second half of the fight he does a number on mike.tysons footspeed slowed down and he tended to reduce his upperbody and head movements after 5 or 6 rounds,and being a much more stationery target,he would simply be meat and drink to ali's jab and combinations.a late ali stoppage or a in the end pretty wide ud for me with mike quite busted up.

 

Well it's no biggie, considering Ali did won by a rather easy (almost lazy looking) KO and indeed Ali didn't mind losing a few early rounds at the cost of early rounds. Foley and Tyson are far apart style-wise so it's not that relevant anyway, but i just wanted to correct who said that it was a one-sided win for Ali.

 

Fair enough.

But when I watch that fight again, I get a somewhat different take on an imaginary Ali-Louis match-up. Good, technical counter-punchers like Folley posed a challenge for Ali, even more so evident by his fights with Jones and Norton. That's make you appreciate just what a challenge Louis would pose. I probably see Lewis as Ali's most dangerous opponent in an imaginary match-up, but Louis might just come a close second. Really interesting prospect.

 

Any time a fight ends by KO mid way through, it's a bit one-sided.

And now I'm going to have to dig it out and watch it again, refresh my memory as you suggested.

I don't recall any of his fight from that era being all that competitive, but i could be mistaken.

I believe that was the fight where Ali told Folley's 9 year old (upset) son after the fight that his dad only lost because he was past prime and that If he'sd faced a prime Folley, it would have been a different story.

All in all, a rather nice and noble lie.

 

Just watched Ali Folley again.

I have to stand by my earlier 'one-sided' comment.

Allowing Zora the first two rounds (because Ali was clowning around and feeling him out) Ali dominated the remainder. In fact, he toyed with Folley. Landing some good shots does not make a fight competitive

 

I think anyone predicting an easy fight for either man is out of order. Both men would have their moments, that's for sure.

As great as Ali was, I think his legend (particualrly in the 60's) can get overblown by some. He was dominant during the period, but the quality of his opposition in my mind, was not on par with Tyson's opponents of the 80's.

The likes of Cleveland Williams (at least the Williams that Ali fought), Folley and old Patterson certainly don't impress on film. On the other hand, his 70's opposition was much sterner. I think we have to make the distinction as to which Ali is doing the fighting here - the 60's or 70's version - as there is a marked difference between the two.

To me, the biggest difference between the fighters is not their style so much as their mental make-up. Ali was naturally confident and cocky, Tyson's confidence needed to be constantly reinforced. I think by nature, he was quite an insecure fighter.
When you're winning and on top, even a 'manufactured' confidence is fine, but the facade is removed the moment things don't go as planned. That's where natural confidence helps you through, and where manufactured confidence falls like flour out of a chute.

I'm going to try and stay away from the old 'Tyson was mentally weak' cliche', because I don't think he was mentally weak. No kid who can climb from a gutter to be a heavyweight champion is mentally weak. A real weakling would never leave the ghetto.
Again, to me it boils down to confidence. If you're naturally insecure, you're going to crawl inside a shell when things go against you...and that's what Tyson on occasion did.

The trick or course is to make Tyson's insecurities come back to haunt him. In his best years, nobody had the talent to do that. Ali though, was a master amateur psychologist and would start the mind games long before the fight took place. He was adept at isolating character flaws or fighting weaknesses and picking on them constantly. He named Floyd 'The Rabbit', Foreman 'The Mummy' etc.
I don't think these mind games would get to Tyson right away, but the seed of doubt would be planted by Ali. As time went on, Ali would chip, chip, chip away at that confidence as the seed started to germinate.

Come fight time, Ali would need to now get that seed to sprout as the rounds wore on. That's the trick, and against a rampaging Tyson, it's not easy. I say rampaging, but I actually think that Tyson would be more patient than normal, and establish a good body attack. Ali was as fast as lightining, but even during his best years he got tagged. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point, but he got hit by some big punches.
There is no doubt in my mind that Tyson would have the better of the exchanges during the first few rounds. His speed of hand matches Ali's, and he would try to counter Ali's long lefts and rights. Tyson had excellent timing and I see him catching Ali with some nice shots.
This is where things get a little testy for me...does Ali switch tactics or does he fight his usual fight from here on? I've always felt that Tyson is not comfortable when forced on the back foot, or being mauled in clinches. Trouble is, Ali hadn't really adopted the clinch wholeheartedly during his best years...that came later.
If he continues to use lateral movement and just pop out that jab, Ali could be in trouble. Lateral movement wsn't a big concern for a vintage Tyson. He was trained to a fault in dealing with guys who could move. Some may point to Tucker, but Tyson won handily on the cards against a guy in there to survive. Ali, I assume, wants to win. Certianly, Bigg's lateral movement had no effect at all on Tyson. It's foolish to assume either are of Ali's caliber, but there are stylistic similarities.

That's not to say it would be plain sailing for Tyson, but although I'm sure Ali would score with some good jabs and the odd right hand, I personally don't believe that that would be enough to discourage Tyson, who had a very good defense and more importantly, could explode from a crouch with quick and hard punches.

Ali's mind games will only come into play if he succeeds in gaining the upper hand. That could be the nail in the coffin for Tyson. Two attributes that would come into play are Ali's amazing stamina and punch resistance, and make no mistake, he'd need both here. If Ali finds himself behind (and I think he will be, after seven or eight rounds) what does he do to turn things around? We can't just casually assume that Tyson would start to wind down around this point, especially if the fight is close.

For me, Ali would have to accelerate the pace, and start using his mind games to annoy and frustrate Tyson. He'd have to start pulling his head down in clinches, and fighting a little dirty. Rough Tyson up some. Use the uppercut as Tyson bores in. If Tyson gets cut, work it.

If Ali hasn't established dominance by 10 rounds, I think Tyson will have done enough work early to take a decision, and this is especially true if he scored a knockdown earlier. On the other hand, if the fight is still very close as we go into the 11th, I believe Ali's superior conditioning and greater heart will allow him to take the lead down the stretch and keep it.

Either way, I think the fight goes the distance. Tyson was a huge puncher but even so, Ali had one of the best chins in the game. On the other hand, although it's not impossible to see Ali forcing a stoppage, but would he take that chance, knowing Tyson's ability to punch?