Ali was overrated

Relative to weight, Yes. I was trying to make the point that relative to his size his athleticism was extraordinary.

In pure terms No. But the triple jump record holder weighed a small fraction of Ali.

 

It's pretty easy to make a case for Ali being the #1 heavyweight; but I think it's much harder to make the case for top 5 or #1 P4P given the freakish cases that can be made for guys like SRR, Pep, Greb, Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, and others of that ilk. I honestly don't think any Heavyweight could produce a resume to combat, say, an original 3 division champion like Ross or Armstrong. The system itself, with how it rewards the lighter weight classes moreso than Heavyweights, makes that basically impossible.

Had Ali ever been small enough to compete at Light Heavyweight or Cruiserweight (preferably light heavy if it's purely legacy we're talking) and succeeded there prior to moving up and conquering heavyweight, it'd be much easier to make that case IMO. As it stands, I'm not so sure he'd rank higher than Tunney P4P because of that same reasoning.

 

George Foreman in his forties scared Mike Tyson half to death. You can beat George if you're great, but it's gonna hurt, and it's never easy.

The younger version of Foreman would not have lost to Tommy Morrison, and would steamroll the currrent HW division. Wladimir Klitschko is a much better boxer, with power and good fundamentals, but George could rock him with a jab.

 

So 60 fights at heavyweight is superior to 200 fights at welter and middle, yes? If so. It'd be interesting to see any other heavyweights on your pfp list. Surely there must be loads of 'em. :good


Resourceful: Robinson was taking on a guy that was one of the best middlweights in the world, in approximately his 200th fight, in his 45th year.

 

Great comments. Athletisism displays itself in so many ways, and Ali's boxing athletisism was unique and unsurpassed. Add his heart and mind to the equation and you have "The Greatest".

RE, Michael Jordan, he flamed out of baseball so I guess he was overrated athletically too.

 

MichaelJordan was 6'6, so he was even bigger than Ali. Why do you compare them relative to weight with Ali but not Jordan? Sounds like someone's trying to distort things.

 

What did Ali do besides boxing then? We're talking pure athletic ability.

 

Post-exile Ali looked extremely poor athletically.

 

MJ should be considered relative to weight, but here he runs into a problem. As he is not one of the bigger basketballers the 'weight' qualifier does not flatter him like it does Ali, which is kind of one of the points I was trying to make.

I am not trying to distort anything - merely giving my opinion based on observations of the various athletes under consideration. Of course, none of these comparisons (such as basketballers versus boxers) are standardised so it is all perception, and clearly our perceptions differ. Fair enough.

As it happens, I once looked up MJs standing verticle jump measurements (tested by University researchers) as a proxy for his power / explosiveness. Its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested.

His best result was only a couple of inches better than Steve Ovett who was an endurance athlete (not power or explosiveness) who once ran a half marathon in 65 minutes.

 

Agreed. His results were then reliant on other metrics.

When you add all the metrics together (Pre and Post Exile in one package) maybe you have a product that is comparable / marginally superior to SRR at his best?

 

It doesn't work that way. You can't have just strong points of two different versions of Ali together. You either have an athletic fighter who is somewhat fragile and not very strong physically, or you have a very tough fighter, but who is poor at athletism. Prime SRR was more complete without necessity to add to him qualities from his middleweight version.

 

In the Uk we have a saying that is put on blank hoardings to deter unwanted grafitti,it is POST NO BILLS,given your user name I think this applies to you!

 

Jordan's vertical leap is 44 inches, that is a commonly known fact among basketball fans.

And what was Ali's result?

 

I suspect this is the main divergence in our viewpoints.

I am comfortable adding the post exile qualities to the '66-'67 athletic version of Ali. IMO those qualities were there, he just didnt need to use them.

If you are not happy doing that, fair enough. That would certainly undermine his P4P placing greatly.

 

If you had bothered to read my previous post, I conceded that there were no comparable metrics measured between Ali and Jordon.

As such, we are both relying on perception. I have watched them both, and I believe Ali's athleticism to be superior. If you disagree, it is a disagreement in perception, not of a fact - fair enough.

PS I would be careful taking at face value aything that is 'known' by US basketball fans to be a 'fact' unless you have double checked it. As you are no doubt aware the US is a culture of hyperbole, and basketball is a sport replete with style-over-substance, superficial showmanship and trash talking.