Ali watches Liston stop Patterson

I think there is a stronger psychological aspect to this. At the highest level this can be a huge factor.

Guys like Tyson and Sonny were full on natural predators. Real predatory by instinct. They can instinctively install and smell any kind of response they can impose in the presence of an individual and see it as a weakness. It drives them.

They know a man cannot perform unless he is 100% mentally focused to fight. If a guy trained to fight his best fight has 1% of his thoughts not on the job at hand it’s over. And guys like Tyson and Sonny can smell that kind of thing. It’s a street thing. A survival thing. A prison thing. Dog eat dog.

A lesser fighter than Floyd or Spinks would do better against Tyson and Sonny than they did all because those guys couldn’t quite allow that level of initial psychological control over them.

Spinks and Floyd were doomed mentally. I don’t think Style comes into it.

 

You don’t think, with hindsight, that the career timing of Foreman facing Joe Frazier at a time where Joe was overweight, singing in a band part time, and had not fought a serious opponent since he was hospitalised after the Ali fight favoured George foreman somewhat ?

 

We can't really much more than speculate about their mental state in the ring. But as for Floyd, it is a fact and not speculation that he gave up a lot of size. I would also call it a fact that he wasn't a circling back foot boxer, that his somewhat crouching peek-a-boo style wasn't suited for such a strategy.

So these things heavily outweigh what I can only speculate about his psychological state.

Spinks is a bit different, though. He was good at circling and boxing from the outside. He also didn't give up much weight and had a height and reach advantage. So even though he could be said not to be a natural HW, one at least could argue that he had the style and size to do better than he did, much more so than in the case of Patterson.

 

Dosnt answer the question.

I undermine the theory of style advantage when it is used as A Rock Paper Scissors Stone kind of thing.

Points like career timing, size, age, condition, experience, mental focus and employing the right game plan within a style surpass “style advantage” itself as a factor. It’s a nonsense.

 

Patterson was able to employ the right tactics against Bonavena and Chuvalo which could erase the notion that bigger World class men of the “puncher” style were always a complete antidote to Floyd. In fact, Floyd brained a few big punchers from the opponent circuit like Todd Herring, Bill mcmurray and Charlie Powell scoring spectacular wins over men with all the physical and style advantages of a Sonny Liston.

“Former heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson knocked out Charley Powell of San Diego at 1:21 of the 6th round Saturday night in a scheduled 10 round fight. Patterson knocked out Powell with a flurry of hard lefts and rights as the climax to a fight which the ex-heavyweight champ fought in textbook style against the towering ex-professional football player. Patterson started Powell's downfall when he sent the Californian to the canvas for a count of nine in the 6th round and then dropped his opponent flat on his back in the middle of the ring with a series of combinations for the kayo." -United Press International

“Patterson stung McMurray with a long left that dropped the Sacramento, Calif., fighter to his knees, then finished him off moments later with a lightning combination.
Patterson said he dropped McMurray with a left hook and a short hard right to the head. It came so fast many spectators didn't see it. McMurray reeled with the first blow, then crashed heavily to the canvas as the right landed, his head hitting the ring floor with a loud thud. It took the ring doctors and his handlers several minutes to bring him around. McMurray never got a chance to land a solid punch against Patterson, who fought out of his familiar peek-a-boo defense. Patterson spent the first 1 1/2 minutes jabbing cautiously while circling McMurray to his right.” -Floyd Patterson KO's McMurray In 1st Round" The Morning Record

 

Why does everybody say Patterson and Spinks were frozen? Both threw punches but just couldn't hurt the other guy.
Have you actually seen Liston Patterson and Tyson Spinks? They fougt but just got knocked out. We're they scared? Sure, but everybody is scared before a fight. Once the bell rang they threw punches, if they really were THAT scared they would have atleast lasted a while by running or holding on for dear life.

 

Floyd did show up. Liston was just far greater

 

Any chance to discredit Liston he will do. remember...he ranks Floyd and Liston neck and neck on his all time heavyweight list

 

Yep...Such an odd way of thinking lol

 

Bonavena, Chuvalo, were world class punchers? Since when? Patterson barely squeaked by both men, barely.

Herring, Mccmurray were tomato cans

Powell was washed up when he fought Floyd, and wasn’t that even good in his prime

Big difference between a prime Liston, prime Foreman and those men in skill, power, and talent.


Floyd brought his best vs Liston. He got overwhelmed stylistically

Even in Floyd’s prime, Damato steered him clear of big punchers and big world class men. Damato refused a fight with baker in 55, avoided Valdes in 58, and avoided Williams in 61. One of the few punchers that he fought, Johansson, knocked him silly. Another, Liston, damato pleased for Floyd not to fight but the public pressure was overwhelming.

Liston was a nightmare matchup for Floyd

 

While Floyd did utilize movement, I'd say that the exchanges with Chuvalo and Bonavena mostly were held at the distance where Liston destroyed Floyd in both fights.

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Patterson would have been favourite to win those fights. At no point were they fights that were anyway more important than the fights Patterson actually took. Baker and Valdes already lost to Moore. Williams? He was never getting a shot at Patterson ahead of Liston.