Ali watches Liston stop Patterson

That’s a good observation. We know Sonny was better than either Chuvalo or Bonavena but we don’t know exactly why it was that Floyd was so much more resilient against them if “style advantage” was the only factor against a puncher.

 

Great job in posting this up....good coverage of the fight.....and some of the "outside" info such as Clay not shaking hands with Liston. Note: I might have seen this back in 1963 at my local movie theater a week after the fight as part of a "news-reel".

 

Because Sonny punched very hard and well. He KO'd a number of world class before Patterson. Chuvalo's only major stoppage win was when Quarry mistimed the count and waited too long with getting up. Bonavena floored Frazier three times, but had no major stoppage win. He couldn't even KO an old Folley, while Sonny dispatched of the prime version in three rounds. Chuvalo plain lost to Folley and couldn't stop DeJohn, whom Liston stopped in seven rds.

Liston was just a level or two above Chuvalo and Bonavena. They were strong, tough and durable, but they couldn't compete with Liston in terms of power and skill.

 

Liston is a far better fighter than those two. When you add his style AND class that's all she wrote.

Levels as McGrain might say. Obvious levels.

 

Styles. Moore matched up great with big punchers, but Patterson did not. Just because Moore beat them doesn’t mean Patterson would have. Damato avoided big punchers as long as he could because he wasn’t confident in Patterson’s ability to take a heavyweights punch. Patterson had great attributes like handspeed, skill and some power, but his chin was very vulnerable. He also lacked confidence in himself. I would make Patterson the favorite over Valdes and Baker but the fights would be interesting. Valdes at his best beat Charles, so he’s capable of beating Floyd if he shows up at his best.

Williams should have gotten a title shot over Tom Mcneeley in 1961. Floyd was offered 100k or 40 percent of the gate to defend against Williams in 1961. Damato refused.

I pick Williams to beat Floyd in 1961.

 

Yes, I also wish Floyd fought Williams. I feel if Floyd had fought Williams it would not have been regarded as any more memorable title defence than beating Harris. I have a hunch Williams would fare no better than 6’4” Charlie Powell did against Patterson since Williams fared so poorly against championship level guys.

 

You're actually going to claim that Cleveland Williams was no better than Charlie Powell? Charlie Powell, who had just been well beaten by Roger Rischer, who had in turn been knocked cold by Williams the previous year.

 

Who were the championship level guys William faced?

Ali and Liston? Williams went 0-3 here. But Patterson also went 0-4 with 4 knockout losses against Ali and Liston so he didn’t fare much better.

Terrell? Williams went 1-1. AP scorecard had Williams winning the second fight 48-46. So Williams proved he belonged on The lower championship level. Patterson was on the lower championship level and Williams held the big stylistic advantage. Williams is a live dog in this fight.

 

He makes fun of Williams for losing to ali and Liston yet fails to address Patterson going 0-4 vs those same men

 

Williams stood no more stylistic advantage against Patterson than Charlie Powell and Bill McMurray had. They were just as big as Williams. I’m talking stylistically here not in a world level sense.

Tommy Jackson was a better fighter than Williams too.

 

Williams was a bit better than Powell was at his best. At his best Powell got a decent win over Nino Valdes.

Powell was a big guy with a good punch. Very athletic too. And he beat some top guys at his best.

I am mostly demonstrating that for Williams to be included as a “style advantage” he must be compared to guys like Powell who Floyd knocked out.

 

Except he did since Williams was a massive puncher with terrific handspeed. Patterson showed against Liston that he was both vulnerable and intimidated by a powerful puncher with quick hands.

McMurray and Powell did not possess either of those qualities

 

Styles. Williams matches up better with Patterson than Jackson did.

Patterson struggled big punchers

Jackson- couldn’t punch
Williams- could punch

Jackson- skinny smallish 195lb
Williams- bigger 215lb of muscle

Jackson- slow hands
Williams- fast handspeed

 

Powell knocked out Nino Valdes at a time when Nino was still higher rated (at that moment) than anybody Big Cat Williams ever knocked out.

Williams is higher regarded. But on his best night he can’t match Powell knocking out Valdes.

Surely Powell at 6’4” athletic and muscular, a guy knocking out a rated contender, who on film is similar to Williams must go down as sharing similar attributes “style-wise” to Williams another 6’3 athletic muscular guy?

If “style advantage” is going to be tossed about as something that exists as a legit point against Patterson then let’s include fighters Patterson beat easily who compare to this description.