Ali watches Liston stop Patterson

in what way? Let’s look at statistics, film evidence and resume. Then get back to me.

Sonny Liston and Ingo Johansson? There’s a lot of great fighters that struggle with that kind of power and ability. I don’t believe you can throw a guy like Williams (who lost all his important fights) into Liston or Johansson level just like that. Williams could not knock out Frankie Daniels, Billy Daniels or Terry Daniels but he’s going to knock out Floyd Patterson?

Jackson still decked Rex Layne twice. He flattened rated Johnny Williams and Jackson’s one punch kayo over Howard King was considered quite spectacular. He hurt Clarence Henry and Bob Baker on the way to beating them. Tommy was a volume puncher but he hurt and busted up a lot of guys too.

yes Williams was a banger up to a level but it never really translated into actual knockouts against the top men he fought when they had a ranking. Billy Daniels, Eddie Machen, Ernie Terrell, Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston.

he’s just as tall. Same reach. 10lb lighter. I think the better work rate and top calibre wins makes up for the 10lb of muscle.

I don’t think Tommy would have been called “hurricane” if he didn’t throw fast punches. He’s not a slow puncher at all.

 

Powell lost twice to Roger Rischer who Williams knocked out in 3 rounds.

It wasn't just Liston and Johansson. Floyd was knocked down many times in his career. His chin was not a strong point. Floyd showed against Liston he could be overwhelmed early by a 215lb strong powerful puncher.

Jackson was called "Hurricane" because he had great stamina. He would swarm all over you like a storm and never get tired. It had NOTHING to do with his speed. Watch Jackson on film, he did not have fast hands...at all.

Jackson weighed 193lb vs Floyd. Williams weighed 215lb vs Liston. That is a 22lb difference. I have no idea where you are getting only "10lb" from

Alex Miteff was ranked when Williams knocked him out. Williams was Terrell's only knockout loss until 1973 in his final career fight.

Jackson was not a puncher at all. He couldn't hurt a fly. He knocked out men because he wore them down with his unlimited stamina. Once they were tired and exhausted, he would finish them off.

Jackson's style did not work well against Floyd but Williams style plays well against Floyd.

Floyd would have been intimidated by williams size and strength. Williams possessed the power and handspeed to seriously threaten Patterson early with a knockout.

 

Yes, that was the great highlight of Powell's career. A win over the 34-year old Valdes who by then was losing to the likes of Alex Miteff and Alonzo Johnson (who both went on to be heavily defeated by Williams). The Patterson fight was more than 5 years later, after numerous losses and a 2-year retirement.

 

I wonder if Liston's monster puncher reputation was overly enhanced by his two destructions of Patterson. They were so high profile, being championship bouts.

 

A prime Williams was a few levels above the semi retired Powell of 1964

 

The 34 year old Nino Valdes lost to Miteff and Johnson. Cleveland Williams knocked out Miteff in 5 and Johnson in 1.

 

but Williams never demonstrated that he was in Sonny Listons league. Sonny hammered Williams who collapsed into a giant heap. Twice. Floyd did beat 215 strong powerful guys. Being strong and powerful and 215 in itself was not enough. You had to be Sonny Liston.

whatever you think of Jackson, he was a legitimate number one contender as tall as Cleveland Williams with the same reach and he had better wins than Willliams had. Actual wins. Baker, Charles, Henry, Layne, Buceroni. And Jackson took Patterson to a SD in their first fight.

Terrrell was a good win on paper for Williams But once Terrell put losses like that as well as other blips to Wayne Bethea And other’s behind him Ernie became a different fighter. Terrell surpassed Williams by avenging that loss and beating men like machen that Williams could not beat. The next best man Williams beat was Billy Daniels whom Williams could not stop in two fights with a 20lb weight advantage. Miteff was a trial horse.

Williams lost all his important fights. Name an Important fight Williams won? You can’t say that about Jackson.

 

Much later on. Miteff lost seven fights between beating Nino and losing to Williams. So Alex was rather softened up by the time Willisms met him.

After beating Valdes, Alonzo Johnson lost 9 more fights before Williams could beat him. After 9 beatings was that version of Alonzo comparable to the one that beat Nino?

 

Miteff was rated 7th in the world when Williams knocked him out. Miteff was being talked about as a title defense for Patterson.

"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International

• After this bout, Texas Boxing Enterprises, the promoter of the bout, sent Floyd Patterson an offer of $100,000 or an option of 40% of the gate to meet Cleveland Williams

Johnson lost 9 more fights, all by decision. No one had ever stopped Johnson before Williams did it in 1 round. What are these “beatings” you are talking about? The only beating he received was from Williams.


"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook.”- -United Press International

 

Sonny Liston said Cleveland Williams hit as hard as him. Patterson got intimidated by big powerful menacing heavyweights like Liston and Williams. Williams lightning fast powerful left hooks would have been very dangerous to Floyd. Floyd would have walked right into him. Dangerous stylistic matchup for Floyd.

We are not comparing the careers of Jackson and Williams. We are comparing who matches up better against Patterson. Jackson’s style of swarming without punching ability played right into Floyd’s hands. Jackson didn’t threaten Floyd because he didn’t have the power to hurt him. At 193lb, he didn’t have enough of a size advantage to muscle him around.

Williams was different. He was much bigger than Jackson at 215lb. Williams possessed a lot of power, and a lightning fast left hook. He threw vicious combinations and could double triple up on his left hook. His hands were very fast and he moved around the ring very well. His stamina was quite good. They called him the cat for a reason. Size, power, speed are three quality’s needed to do well vs Patterson. Williams had all 3. Patterson is going to have to walk right into Williams and trade blow for blow. Can he survive Williams early? Would he have the confidence in himself to beat Williams or would be allow himself to get psyched out?

 

Kind of like Floyd beat Powell much later on? Not the version of Powell who beat a 34 year old Valdes in 1959.

 

Great post

That version of Valdes lost to two men who would be iced by Williams in 1 and 5 rounds.

 

is that because Jackson beat #1 contenders and took a world champion to a SD?

Powell, mcmurray and Bonavena had these attributes too.

so did a lot of guys Floyd fought. It didn’t help them against Floyd unless they were called Sonny Liston.

Floyd getting psyched out versus Liston is not the same as getting psyched out by a guy that Liston and Bob Satterfeild had already flattened.

That still dosnt change the fact that Williams could have been great target practice and better preparation for Sonny Liston than mcneeley. I wish there was more demand for Floyd to prove this.

 

Rubbish. His convincing and extremely impressive win over the Daniels who at the time was the #6 heavyweight in the world is undeniably an "important fight".

 

No it was not an important fight. #3 rated Williams was matched to win big against a guy 21lb lighter and he didn’t. He won on points in front of 2,000 fans in a venue with a 18,700 capacity. Talk about a white elephant!

13-0 cassius Clay had already stopped Daniels in a learning fight. So outpointing a guy some 13-0 newcomer Already stopped is not an important fight. It’s no big splash in the division is it? I wouldn’t mind but Williams was shaken in that fight too.

Soon after Mildenburger and Bonavena knocked out Daniels. Even Jack Bodel matched Williams performance in beating Daniels on points.beating Billy was hardly a feather in anyone’s hat.