Ali watches Liston stop Patterson

Of course it was an important fight. It was a clear win over a rival contender. Listing Daniels' defeats from later in his career doesn't change that.

You do see the irony in claiming that this win shouldn't count because Daniels was too small to fight Williams? Daniels was a bit heavier and a lot taller than Patterson, who according to you would use Williams for target practice.

 

He KO'd Valdes, Harris, Williams (twice) and Folley within three rds as well. They were all in or around their primes and were all top 5 ranked at times. You don't flatten guys like that plus Patterson two times without being a dangerous puncher.

 

Yes Liston was the real McCoy. I don’t think Williams was.

 

I listed his stoppage loss to a 13 fight newcomer BEFORE he was outpointed by #3 rated, 21lb heavier Williams in order to look at Daniels form either side of meeting Williams.

 

He was stopped on cuts in a closely-fought contest with a man who went on to be widely acknowledged as one of the two greatest heavyweights of all time. Not exactly a performance to be ashamed of.

 

and his early knockout victory over # 7 Miteff who was being discussed as a potential Patterson title opponent


"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International

• After this bout, Texas Boxing Enterprises, the promoter of the bout, sent Floyd Patterson an offer of $100,000 or an option of 40% of the gate to meet Cleveland Williams.

But according to choke, Cleveland Williams was not any more dangerous than Bill McMurray and CharliePowell

 

Williams was big enough, strong enough, hit hard enough, and was fast enough to seriously threaten an early knockout of the much smaller Patterson. Williams was also a menacing figure and Patterson didn't have a lot of confidence at that stage of his career.

 

You could give Williams a punchers chance I suppose, but where was Williams punchers chance against Frankie Daniels, Billy the barber Daniels, Eddie Machen etc etc..?

I just don’t see the evidence being enough for Williams emulating Sonny against Patterson. Especially when Sonny was the man who twice brained Williams.

John Thomas says the Billy the Barber win was “extremely impressive”. But it wasn’t. He only scored the same result as Jack Bodel. Either side of the 20 (knockdown free) rounds Williams shared outscoring Billy the Barber 13 fight Clay, mildenburger And Bonavena beat him easier.

 

Liston was on the record as saying "Williams hit as hard as me. No one wants to fight Cleveland Williams."

"Target Practice"

Wishful Thinking.

" Powell, mcmurray and Bonavena had these attributes too."

MccMurray, Bonavena had elite handspeed, punching power, and Movement? Since when?

When did Powell show fast hands and fast movement in the boxing ring?

Bonavena is also considerably smaller and shorter than Williams in height and reach


"Jackson"

Have you seen the patterson I fight? Jackson won 2-3 rounds at most. The lone wolf who scored it for Jackson should have been suspended.

Again, Jackson had a completely different style than Williams. Jackson was a skinny swarmer who fought on the inside who had plenty of stamina, but no punch. Williams was a tall big long slugger who threw fast concussive hooks on the outside and inside.

completely different styles and attributes

 

"Brained Williams"

Not before Williams staggered liston and broke his nose. Only because of Listons great durability was he able to recuperate and bounce back. If Williams staggered and broke pattersons nose in the first round, would patterson be able to take it and bounce back?

The Liston Williams fights were competitive despite the end result. Liston just went through patterson like a hot knife through butter.

 

I don't know why you compare either man to Cleveland Williams.

Comparing common opponents of Williams and McMurray.

Both fought Tod Herring, Roger Rischer, Eddie Machen, and Sonny Liston. Both men got knocked out by Liston so I'll leave him off.

Williams went 2-0-1 against Rischer, Herring, and Machen

McMurray went 0-4 against Herring, Rischer, and Machen with 2 knockout defeats


"Powell"

You bring up his "Big" win over 34 year old Nino Valdes. Valdes was beaten by Alonzo Johnson and Alex Miteff. Williams knocked out # 7 ranked Miteff in 5 rounds and was the first man to knockout Johnson doing so in just 1 round. Powell also lost to Roger Rischer whom Williams destroyed in 3 rounds.

 

Significant is a good word. As you say, if those ratings are correct, that would be significant rather than “important”. Either way the result cannot be “extremely impressive” if the guy had been stopped either side of this points result.

I would say the important fights Williams had were the Liston fights, the elimination bouts with Machen and Terrell and the Ali fight. Cleveland did not win those.

He did have significant wins over Miteff and Billy the Barber. I accept that because it is true. But what do they amount to? Who else is great from those kind of wins?

 

Because they represent style comparison with Williams. Style size and athleticism. Certainly Level is a different matter for sure. But nobody was talking about level, only “style”. you cannot talk about a “style advantage” for that style of fighter if Patterson flattened at least two guys like that. Otherwise Where’s the advantage of having just that style? Powell was found not to have an advantage over Floyd when he was sprawled on the canvas even though he shared style size and athleticism with Williams.

 

Good point.