Ali- Who could have beat him?

Prime Ali was just too quick for today's slow moving/low skill behemoths. Ali would have an open target until the ref would stop the fight. You need to have the skill and speed to beat prime Ali.

 

Today's top boxers are too advanced for Ali and any boxer from 60/70s.

 

Advanced in what way? None have Alis skill speed or toughness. Not comparable in any way. Tommo...how old are you?

 

I think that you are mistaking "skill" for "talent". Boxing as a sport is more developed than it was 40 or 50 years ago. Boxers of today are much more skilled than the boxers of the past. "Toughness" is a relative term. For example, you can say that some unskilled, short fighter is tough, but it wouldn't mean anything if he fought highly skilled tall fighter. I'm not saying that anyone is "unskilled", just giving out a proper example so the things would be more understandable.
Some things that were superb back in the day look very primitive from today's perspective. Of course Ali is an all time great, but when it comes to H2H, he, or any fighter from his era, is not comparable to modern present boxers.

 

You could not be more wrong. What skills do the present hwt fighters have? The art of boxing...the ability to slip, block, feint, parry and counter to vital areas of the body is a lost art in the hwt division. Look at Louis as an example and his ability to fire off 5-6 punch combinations ....no hwt today has that level of skill. Dempseys ability to feint opponents out of position and fire off short KO punches traveling 6 inches. No hwt today has that level of skill. I look at todays hwts and say HOW PRIMITIVE they are. Lumbering with primitive techniques...jab, right hand, jab right hand..all predictable...no complex combinations, no basic defensive skills. Then you look at TOUGHNESS and you see fighters like the Klit brothers who look for the exits when they are hurt. hwt boxing in many ways is a dead sport vs the past and some of this has to do with the lack of real ability and this stems from the lack of great trainers. In the past every major city had a dozen boxing gyms each populated with great trainers. Not today. Too many amatures who dont know how to teach a feint from a parry. THATS how it is today vs years past.

 

Tommo....I dont think your 32. You write like your 16. Ali did not know how to box and Morrison...a nothing would KO him. Thats all I need to know. Do you know how many are laughing at you right now?

 

I don't think that even you believe in what you just typed. Are you seriously suggesting that a guy from 1920 would be able to compete today? Do you really think that? If so, there something really wrong with your opinion.
Don't think that I'm typing this out of disrespect towards any past boxer. My favorite boxer of all time is Rocky Marciano and I personally consider him the greatest, and that's my subjective opinion.
On the other side, I'm not going to pretend that the sport didn't evolve since Marciano and I'm not going to claim that he would defeat boxers who appeared decades after him. That would be very ignorant from my side if I did so.
What you do, is bringing the arguments you that you are perfectly aware that are wrong.
You are talking about "Dempsey's ability to feint the opponent out of position". You need to be aware that it's year ~1920 you are talking about. If you put someone like in-shape Odlanier Solis (who I consider extremely talented boxer of today who isn't really using his talent) in front of someone like Dempsey of 1919, you think that Dempsey would be able to play his game of 1920s and move Solis out of position? You think that Solis would just stand there defenseless like Willard? In reality Dempsey would never be able to land. He would get tired really soon and most likely KOed. Same for Marciano, Louis or anybody else from that time.
I know that you obviously like past boxers more than present ones, but why is that stopping you to objectively view the reality?
I could go on and say something like "Marciano was never been defeated, so he would beat any HW in history, full stop!' but I'm aware that every sport INCLUDING boxing evolves and I think that you are aware of that too, just unwilling to admit it.

 

Seriously who is talented in the HW division these days to give legends like
Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Louis, Lewis, Liston, Holmes, etc trouble?
I believe Wlad loses to all of them. Povetkin has skills but untested. We have superheavies with subpar technical skills and weak chins. Just because nutrition, sports medicine, and training methods have evolved does not mean boxers from other eras are not comaprable to today's "talent". I agree with Houdini that many aspects of that sweet science that make boxing an art are a thing of the past : feinting, parrying, slipping,
defense, strategy, finding the weakness in someone's style etc. The world was a different place 20 even 10 years ago and it will never be the same. The aforementioned legends came up the hard way and honed their craft
through blood, sweat, and tears. Not the greatest analogy, but consider this: 50 years ago there were a handful of great classical guitarists in the world with incredible musicality and technique. Now 50 years later with more technique books etc the technique bar has been raised so theres a million people with flawless technique, but not many who can compare to the musicality of the past legends. Point being many musicians as well as trainers are missing the big picture. There's so much more to HW boxing than throwing a 1 2 combo and being a trash talking slugger. The study of boxing as an art with brilliant strategy, character, and mental toughness isnt valued as much anymore. Do yourself a favor, check out an article by "McGrain" on Joe Louis' style. That is what boxing is all about.
Anyway who could beat Ali? Clay as well or just Ali? Tyson, Bowe, Lewis,
have a shot but Ali had an unshakeable will. Hard to bet against him. Then again its just as hard to bet against peak Tyson. Todays Heavies don't have that character and never say die attitude. Say what you want about
Ali, Tyson, FOreman, Holmes etc. fact is they don't make them like that anymore.

 

Houdini,

Tommo, in his previous incarnation as '' Glover '' told us in an earlier thread that he was 35, now he is saying 32.

All we need to know really.

 

Thought i would post this interesting read from the Thomas Hauser book Muhammad Ali, His Life And Times.
Chapter: Burial, page 458

It talks about Alis opinion of Tyson as well as those of Teddy Atlas, Floyd Patterson, Bill Cayton, and Kevin Rooney, Jose Torres and Larry Holmes about how Ali Vs Tyson would pan out.

Interesting to see you guys thoughts.

Alis own heavyweight rankings place himself first, Jack Johnson second and Joe Louis in third place. Even before Mike Tysons shocking loss to James Buster Douglas, Ali said in private about Tyson, "He's predictable, the way he moves his head. He has fast hands, but hes slow on his feet and my hands were faster than his. The way to beat Tyson is with a fast jab, a hard right hand, and if he hits you, you have to be able to take a punch."


Larry Holmes, who fought Tyson when "Iron Mike" was at his peak, says, "Ali would have slapped Tyson all over the ring. Tyson hits hard but he's a bully, and Ali had a way of dealing with them. Can you imagine the things Ali would have said about Tyson before that fight? Hed have made Tyson so mad, Tyson would have been running into the ropes when they started the fight."

Holmes view of Alis ring supremacy is shared by Tysons early boxing family. Jose Torres and Floyd Patterson were guided to world titles by Tysons mento, Cus Damato. Bill Cayton served with Jim Jacobs as Tysons first co-managers. Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas worked with D'amato as Tysons trainers. When asked to match Ali in his prime against the best Tyson has been to date, all five said Ali would prevail.

full thread http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=267174

 

I wasn't actually saying that boxers of today are more talented than the old boxers. Talent is something that doesn't always appear.
I didn't say that Ali and the others wouldn't be champions today if they were developing under today's circumstances.
But as they were, if they were just brought through the time to present, they just wouldn't stand any chance.
Imagine Jesse Owens against Usain Bolt. If Bolt was running in 30s and not today, he would have maybe or maybe not be champion, but he would have never be able to run 9.58 etc. That's not hard to figure out. But denial is totally different thing.

 

The main factor here is that Frazier posed different problems to Ali than Tyson would have done. Muhammad was slowed up by Joe's infighting skills,and Tyson was n't as good as Frazier in that department. That and constant pressure from beginning to end. Tyson,even at his best,tended to slow up a bit as the fight would go into it's latter stages.


Having said all this,Tyson would have had a good shot at nailing Frazier early. All about styles.

 

Look at Shavers, Lyle, Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc..... everyone was trying to beat Ali. He was the man to beat. Ali beat them all.

I believe when fighting Ali, fighters knew this was the big chance and made sure they were at the top of their game. Even Holmes was in his best shape vrs. Ali, though Ali was already suffering from Parkinsons'
disease and was on thyroid medication for that one.

Ali just found a way to win. If he was beaten, Ali came back and avenged his loss.

 

Tommo, I am sorry to say, but you don´t know anything about boxing if you really believe what you just have written about Ali, I think you are only joking, cause you are really putting out your chin here on this forum.
There is no one in the HW division who could beat Ali in his prime around 66-67.
To be honest Ali from 66-67 would have played with Frazier and Foreman. To comment todays HW´s against Ali in his prime is just a waste of time. They lose big time!

 

Many good posts. Tommo and Stallion are very young and inexperienced. There was a time when I like you were 16 and felt similar thoughts. 40 or so years later after getting to know the best trainers and boxers during that time I see things totally different. All the experts of boxing would listen to what you both say and then chuckle. Ever hear of Futch, Clancy, Dundee, Arcel, Bimstein? Possibly the top 5 trainers ever to live....they would totally disagree with you outwardly but be laughing at you inside. Keep at it boys and have an open mind. You will get there one day.