"Ali wouldn't have hit Joe Louis on the bum with a handful of rice!"

You should be sorry. Before his hands collapsed he was the #1 LHW contender.

After his recovery he was even better. He beat the #1 prospect, the #1 HW contender, the heavyweight champion of the world an ATG Light heavyweight and lost to one of the greatest HW's of all time in an insanely brave effort. You think he achieved all this whilst being "not excellent at anything?" That is naive to say the least.

I haven't said otherwise. Everyone, yourself included, seemed to be talking as if speed was the crucial factor here. My point is that it is not. As to your claim here, Ali became a world class timer, but NOT during what most people consider to be his peak (pre-exile). He became an expert POST exile in my view. I consider him a target puncher against Williams and Terrell. So I guess we disagree again.

Conn established an astonishing fight plan for that encounter built primarily around controlling the range of the fight. This is exactly what Ali did against Liston, so the Conn fight is one where it is fair to look for clues.

My position - Joe's economy of movement would tell. In a 15 round fight, Ali is not going to be able to move like he did against Williams for the entirety. Louis is the perfect stalker. Sometime around 10, Ali is going to slow down. Encounters on the ropes with Louis would not be a joke for Ali. The key encounter, I think, would be between the Ali jab and Louis' defence. How busted up is Joe when Muhammad starts to slow?

My pick is Louis by late stoppage. Just like against Conn.

 

Ali never faced a better composite puncher than Louis, because their hasn't been one - Tyson is all he has for company, really. I agree with you on the following -

"Ali in his prime would have had the speed and refelxes and movement to avoid his punches, just as Billy Conn did."

But not on the following:

"Ali is twice the fighter Conn ever was."

You underestimate Conn, a super-middle and light-heavy who should rank pound for pound. Ali is better of course, not disputing that.

Now, Conn got caught. He developed a perfect fight plan, but it was one that called for nearly perpetual movement - Conn tired and perhaps broke mentally, too. This is what a stalker does. Ali has less economy of movement than Conn and is much heavier. Fifteen rounds with this type of fight plan at this weight is not possible for Ali in my view, as it was not possible for Conn. Louis will catch him, it's just a question of when.

I think it would happen as early as 8 or 9, temporarily, then from 10 onwards more consistantly. Ali was dropped by Henry Cooper not long before his peak against Williams/Terrell. Louis may be the best finisher in boxing, ever.

Of course, Ali has a great chin and is boxing's greatest survivor, perhaps. I am not insisting upon my pick, but I do insist that this one is close to 50.50 and that the people who call this an "easy win" for Ali, as i've read on this site and others, are missing more than just the point.

 

I disagree with you that the gloves are the huge difference maker. I've never boxed in MMA gloves, but I have worn them, and i'm with Doctor Margaret Goodman (who writes for the ring) and in that I believe the biggest differnce-maker is to the hands. There is no real difference in the distribution of concusive power based upon the size of the gloves the fighters wear - it's been proven that there is no difference between 8 and 10 ounce gloves, I believe (Though I woulnd't be surprised to learn the opposite had had been proven, too). If there is a difference, it certainly isn't going to be anything like the one you are indicating.

But say you are right - there is a horrible double standard in this post. Ali's power increases if he wears old gloves, and Louis's is reduced if he wears modern gloves. But you are quite happy to big-up ALi's punch resistance despite the fact he worked with these modern pillows, and attack Louis's punch resistance despite the fact he worked with these "borderline MMA gloves". Also, please note that Louis was only stopped twice, both times in sustained beatings over a number of rounds. His is knockdownable, but his recuparative powers are astounding, and he also turns the tide having been hurt on many occasions.


"Louis wouldn't be able to see after the sixth, he would get hit so much". Ali couldn't even do this to Liston, who was less mobile. Louis has hugely underated defence, too. Look:

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Lots of people would have struggled with Walcott, Louis would destroy Norton in one or two rounds and if you think Frazier may hit harder than Louis, it's fair to suggest it, but I don't think so. In addition, Louis is the better composite puncher by streaks and streaks.

 

Fair enough.

Louis is my #2 aswell. I think Ali is clear #1 overall and on resume, and a shade ahead of the rest on pure head to head. I just think Louis has got the goods to track him down. I do understand that this places me in the minority.