"Ali-Young" of '76 was iffy at best in action, yet Ali did edge Young.

Bill, any way you could post that moment , you know, ali's best and most effective moment of the fight, the one when they came center ring for the instructions? No, I'm serious, I would love to see it. I read somewhere that Jimmy gave him a kiss during the instructions, don't know how true. Also, you seem to be turned off that Jimmy moved BACKWARDS during the fight. How did you feel about the younger Ali dancing around like a gay gazelle in love against more manly opponents like Liston and others. No wonder they didn't do so well, they probably wanted to keep ther'ye distance. Gotta admit he was affective though. But what a way to have to win a fight. I thought that was so cool back in the day, but looked at it recently and just thought it was the most gay looking thing I've ever seen in boxing

 

atsch:rofl

 

Oh, yes, the "liberal media darling" thing. Forgot about that.

I suppose the wildly partial documentary about the Ali-Frazier rivalry from a year or so back is part of that media? As were the many writers that were highly critical of Norton losing the decision? As well as influential writers such as Jimmy Canon and Red Smith who took every chance of critisising Ali? And the many "serious boxing fans" who call Ali a speedster without a trace of technique or fundamentals (and who in the next breath will laud some ****ing Kid Carabou in grainy black and white whose guard consists of occassionally wiping blood from his face).

Yes, Ali is idolized by many, but he also has more detractors than any other fighter. If you believe you're some kind of original contrarian, I've got bad news for you: you aren't.

 

Good points and post from Bokaj. My sentiments exactly. Ali's close shaves and questionable decision victories post Manilla are stuck under the microscope and gone over with a toothcomb. And.........no,I'm not questioning the right of people doing this,but there have been many.......many others who've got the rub of the green in this way. It's always Ali who gets his ones printed and hardly anyone else. Why don't we see more posts about the first Whitaker-Ramirez bout,for example ? Now THAT one WAS a dodgy decision.

 

Bokaj - if you read my earlier posts I did refer that recently some of the media had not "toed the party line" re "the liberal media darling".

Many writers criticised the Norton decision because the criticism was, in the majority view, just.

You've named only 2 theoretically anti-Ali journalists; out of the world's medai over the last 45 to 50 years that's not a majority.

You haven't addressed my earlier point that much of the media gloss over his flaws.

Another thing Bokaj - I think you're a good poster; I think the elements of sarcasm and the patronising tone of your "original contrarian" comment don't do you justice - maybe you think I have personalised my comments on Ali to you - that was not my intention:good

 

I'd say yes and no here. It's true that you often see specials where he is treated as a saint and a big hero and all that, but there are plenty where his darker sides are shown as well.

I mean, his womanizing, his betrayal of Malcolm X and his often mean taunting of opponents are all well known. As is the fact that he won several close fights that could have gone the other way and that refs were lenient on his holding. Perhaps some of the pure racist things he said aren't as highlighted as they deserve, but for example Hauser's biography - the most famous one - are clear about them.

Sorry about that in that case. I don't keep track of who has said exactly what in this thread, but it kind of bugs me to be treated like an Ali syncophant just because I don't believe these fights to be horrendous robberies.

It seems like 70-80% of the posters here shout about how they are the enlightened minority that see the truth (ironic, since they aren't a minority here in the first place) and that everyone else are Ali boot lickers. And that annnoys me just a bit.

Of course they don't mention that Louis and Robinson also won all of their close fights on the judges cards.

If you haven't kept that tone I apologize for being condescending.

 

Bokaj - thanks for your reply, I appreciate what you have written. Actually, I do not think, and have never thought of you, as an Ali sycophant. You've actually nailed some of Muhammd's flaws that a "true" sycophant would never admit even existed, and your view of Ali's flaws actually broadly concur with mine!

There are posters on here that are clearly pro-Ali; some that are clearly anti; I think on any subject, especially as one as complex as Muhammad, there are many shades of grey; I think we both fall into the category that recognise that these shades of grey exist.

I'm glad we've clarified any possible misunderstandings...cheers & best regards:good.

 

Ali scored one or two knockdowns during the fight because young stuck his head out of the ring in an attempt to avoid being hit. He offered little offense. Ali in his prime was an offensive machine as he moved about the ring so no comparison to what young was doing that night. Noway does young deserve a win over a champion when he basically refused to engage most of the fight.

 

Hell, the dog is doing the fight commentary for Bill