Alis durability is his best feature

I have the compubox numbers. I don’t need to go round by round. Those r shots that landed not thrown. If u can get knocked out by a body shot it counts. That’s your durability which is strength of chin in a nutshell
If u don’t want to count those that’s fine too I guess but I’m sure it wouldn’t change to much. Either ways he’s taken a ton of shots from big punchers enough so to show he can be compared to anuone

 

Why would he be above 32? What reason is there to dispute his recorded age? He flattened Patterson in 62 and he did it again just as easily in 63. If age was creeping up on him there would be signs. There are none

 

There are a lot of reasons to dispute his current age. For example, the 1930, 1940 and 1950 US population census each contradicted his age and by a good margin each time.

The 1950 census said Liston was 27. When Liston got arrested in 1950, he told the police he was 20 years old, the press said he was 22.

"CHARLES (SONNY) LISTON v was on cortisone for five days immediately prior to his ill-fated title defense on Feb. 25, according to a report released Tuesday by the Senate Antitrust and Monopoly subcommittee. prepared by the State's attorney's office of Dade county, the report quoted Liston's adviser and personal physician as saying that Listen also was under going physiotherapy for pains in his left, arm for an 8 day Period before the fight. The Miami boxing Commission was not notified of the treatment, the report said. After the fight, according to the report, Dr. Lester Russin and other doctors at Miami's St. Francis Hospital confirmed Liston's injury as an inflamed tendon in his left arm. Dr. Russin was quoted as saying the condition was "particularly prevalent In older athletes.

"The report said that Dr. Russin estimated Liston's actual age as between 38 and 41. The former champion has listed himself as 30 years old."

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/98505474/the-philadelphia-inquirer/

 

None of this disproves his given date of birth in any case, it's pure speculation. As for tendonitis being more prevalent in older athletes, a quick google search gives me the following:
"Tendonitis is a common injury in young athletes that occurs when tendons swell or tear due to repetitive or strenuous movements. This can happen when athletes overwork their joints, use poor body mechanics, or make unnatural motions"

Young guys get tendonitis all the time doing weight lifting, I've had my share of knee, shoulder and elbow issues.

 

Well he was heavyweight champion of the world. If he didn’t train, he should have.

And after getting his ass handed to him the first time, he should have surely been ready for the rematch. Yet there he was on the floor soon as it started.

I don’t personally think there’s a version of Liston who could come close to handling the best version of Ali. The difference in speed would have been profound no matter what.

 

A doctor’s guess isn’t an indicator of true age.

Nor is having a medical condition ‘prevalent in older athletes.’ That doesn’t preclude an athlete in his 20s from having the same, just means it shows up more often in older athletes. (And do we have data to back that up, by the way, or is that just the doctor’s ‘estimation’?)

 

There is zero record of his birth being 1932. Literally none. That absolutely was not his recorded age.

 

They couldn't find him in the 1930 census so he couldn't have been born yet. Who came up with the May 1932 birth date?

 

The person who came up with the May 1932 census was....... Sonny Liston. Who previously gave a birth date of '28 and would later give '34.

As for the 1930 census, I'm not surprised he wasn't in there. It's entirely possible he wasn't born yet. But it's also possible, the family didn't report him and/or the worker missed him. Wouldn't be the first time, especially in a family as disorganized as their's with that many children.

 

Fair enough

That's speculating again. I could buy the late 1930 date of birth, you wont get a better bargain out of me Swag!

 

Fair enough mate. I'd just like to add anything regarding Liston's age is speculation. 1927 is my educated guess.

 

I agree, he should have trained. But he DIDN'T.

Liston trained very hard for the rematch and was in terrific form. But then Ali got a hernia and the fight was postponed. Liston started drinking and he did not maintain that good shape.

Late 50's Liston stands a decent chance of beating Ali, but it's not guaranteed of course.

 

If durability was ever Ali’s best material feature we’d have to be talking second career.

Of course, though deteriorated, post exile Ali still had terrific skills to go also.

One way to look at it is to wonder if Ali would’ve got through certain second career fights without the exact durability he did uphold.

While we can credit Ali for a clever strategy in Zaire, we can also wonder what other fighter could’ve taken the punishment Ali did absorb while still remaining sufficiently calm and cool headed to execute and see that particular master plan through.

Ali himself said he became attuned to occasions when badly hurt while still on his feet - it became somewhat familiar territory for him and Ali became conditioned not to panic and sufficiently empowered to ultimately ride out the storms that came his way.

Basically, there was probably no one better at fighting “hurt” than Ali - so much so, there are likely a number of instances when Ali was badly hurt that went undetected.

I can point to a period in round 10 of Manila when I believe Ali was near enough to being out on his feet - a micro nap if you will - and I think Ali had a few of those throughout his second career.

 

First off, show me some contemporary accounts of Liston’s training camp from the first fight that establish he wasn’t training hard. Not excuses made after the fight, but going into it.

Second, Liston had to wait out a postponement before one of his fights with Patterson. He knew the drill. And exactly how much did he drink over what period of time? A lot of people extrapolate from an account that he heard about the postponement and went straight to a bar (obviously he could break training as he was going to have to prepare for a later date) … are there accounts that he never left that bar until the weigh-in? That he visited it daily or nightly after his camp resumed?

Give us some details rather than a narrative backed by nothing but speculation.

If he did fail to train properly, that reflects on him as a boxer and his legacy. It’s literally his job to train. He’s either fighting to retain or to regain the most important prize in all of sport at that time — if that’s not enough incentive to get out of bed (or crawl out of a bottle) and spend a few weeks working hard, then that tells me he wasn’t all that great.

Now if he didn’t get in shape and overcame that (as Ali and countless others did many times), then he still had native ability and maintained enough conditioning to fight. But if he got beat up twice … that tells me he’s lacking in ingredients that are baked into greatness — discipline, drive, willingness to prepare, etc.

‘He didn’t get in shape’ is the worst excuse for a fighter ever imo, because to me it’s a worse indictment than if had properly prepared and was simply beaten.

 

Yeah, we’ve done a few extremely informative threads re Liston - all relevant info taken on board but still with ??? remaining.

Below is one of those excellent threads started by @SolomonDeedes upon release of the much anticipated 1950 census details.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/sonny-listons-age.684427/

There has been contrary info/implications over the 3 censuses (1930, 1940 and 1950).

I believe Liston was older than the 1932 YOB claim but I also believe that Liston’s appearance gave the illusion of him being older than he was. I’d accept as far back as 1928 for his YOB, probably no earlier. That would still make Sonny an “old” 36 yo as at 1964.

I believe the 1932 YOB was filed by Liston due to it being a necessary official birth document to allow Sonny to participate and compete in the AMs/Gloden Gloves.

I would say the main priority was to have some form of an official birth document.

Many suspected Liston to be older as at time he was fighting.

Guys like Izenberg, Galento, Ali etc. suggested with great conviction that Liston was much older than the 1932 YOB, adding “everyone knew”.

However, besides Liston’s appearance, no one was providing any evidence otherwise as to WHY they believed that Liston was older.

Autopsies might suggest a physiologically older body - but there have been people with concretely confirmed DOBs whose autopsies reflected “prematurely aged” bodies.

Errol Flynn would be one of the most famous cases in point - passed at just age 50 but had the look, the organs and the wear/tear of a 70 yo.

Errol gave himself an absolute flogging during the short time he walked this Earth.

If they bothered to have analysed it, I would guess that Max Baer’s autopsy would’ve also revealed a body aged well beyond Max’s actual years lived.