Ali's "Gift Decisions" Revisited

It's not a good indication of how a fight would have gone in their prime. Ali had fought under an hour in four years, and was noticeably slower, had diminished reflexes, and lacking his previous stamina.

It was a very close fight as is. The UPI scored the bout a draw, and Mercante said he would've given Ali the fight had he not been clowning around.

If Ali had just two more rounds go his way, he would've won the bout. I think a pre-exile Ali had more than enough to win an extra two rounds.

 

But it was also his third fight in less than a year. He'd already trained for, and beaten, two of the best fighters in the world other than Frazier.

 

Well the Quarry fight only lasted about 6 minutes so that's hardly enough time to shake off the ring rust.

As for Bonavena, it was a longer fight yes but it was also 44 minutes which while longer than than Quarry fight, is not enough to shave off four years of inactivity.

Even in that bout people noticed Ali's decline

"Artistically, Muhammad's showing against Bonavena was greeted with mixed emotions. Most boxing people thought it proved that Ali has slowed down and that he will be a sitting duck for Frazier's relentless hooks."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/98677564/daily-news/

 

The Ali in FOTC has not been given enough credit as a still great fighter. I can think of no one that could have endured the punishment, pace and constant attacks of Joe Frazier that night and go 15 rounds. Maybe only a Foreman or a Liston could have quenched Joe's attacks. Plus the punishment that Ali laid on Frazier was immense, a career altering fight. Joe was never the same . This version of Ali I believe was a stronger man than the 67 version. Plus he had experience plus, Honestly though I'd take this Frazier over any version of Ali ,even the 67 Ali who might try to run more but Joe will still be all over him and he can't hide.

 

He may have been stronger but the more "experience" he had was all of 48 minutes which is easily negated by three years of inactivity.

 

He would've presumably been sparring in training camps over the course of the year in preparation for those three fights, which is a lot longer than an hour.

 

Don’t see him beating a prime Holmes or a Prime Liston- that is in peak shape and not taking a dive.

 

Yep. And let's not forget that Ali was older and further past his prime for all the three fights, but still went 2-1 against Joe. This really shouldn't be a debate.

 

He was the same weight he was for Chuvalo in 1966 but with less muscle tone, so doubtful if he was stronger. Those years away didn't help his strength any more than it helped his speed and stamina.

And the 60's Ali was strong enough for Liston and Chuvalo so I don't see why anyone would think he wouldn't be for Frazier.

Also if strength is so all important, but why didn't it benefit Frazier in the second and third fights, when he was bigger in the first? The speedster gets better with a bit of extra weight, but the swarmer does not?

The whole thing just doesn't hold water.

 

Sparring is vastly different than actual fights. Let's not pretend you don't know this.

In any case, Ali was said to have neglected sparring and training up to TFOTC. His wife caught him having an affair with a woman and was more angry that he wasn't taking his upcoming fight seriously than she was at him cheating on her.

 

I'm the biggest Liston fan here, but no Liston beats Ali. Not the Liston of the William bout, the Machen bout, the Patterson bouts, etc.

Neither would Holmes imo. He struggled with much inferior competition that he should've wiped the floor with.

 

It also makes up a LOT more total ring time than fights do. Ali was a professional fighter who'd had numerous title fights in the course of his career. He'd already fought two fights against top 10 opposition in less than a year before the Frazier fight. One of them was a 15 round fight. The other was stopped in the 3rd. By way of contrast, the year prior to fighting Frank Bruno (fight #1), Tyson had had 3 total rounds of ring time. Was Tyson severely handicapped against Bruno by that?

I would assume that neither of us is "pretending," since that would be kind of pointless to do on a boxing forum where we're trying to learn.

I just don't think that a former world champ who'd been training for a year and beaten two top 10 guys by stoppage was rusty. Older and a bit faded compared to his prime, sure. But he had more than enough time and opportunity to get ready, and took it. Heck, Leonard came back and (narrowly) beat Hagler with sparring alone. No warmup fights.

If someone digs through the archives and finds similar evidence that Frazier was having a tough personal life around the time of the FOTC (or his high blood pressure was acting up, or his eye was starting to cause him problems, etc.), does he get the benefit of those excuses when we consider a hypothetical peak Ali/Frazier fight?

As far as the scoring goes, it is a minority opinion these days that FOTC was even, or that Ali only lost because he was clowning. It would be worth your posting a revisionist thread, actually, since it's an interesting issue that will no doubt bring a lot of spirited debate from posters more familiar with the 70s than I. We don't get enough of those.

 

Yeah, I agree with that. He wasn't as good during his comeback as he'd been in 64-67.