I respect those whose whose consciences led them to serve and those whose consciences led them to oppose the war. My pops had a Bronze Star from Korea and a Bronze Star from Vietnam. His PTSD was so bad he would some times sleep in the guest room at night so as not to interfere with my mom's sleep. After twenty years in the military he did another twenty years civilian military. Four of my siblings served, two became officers. My sister, a captain was vacationing in Africa when she got called back during Operation Desert Storm. My dad's highest rank was Staff Sergeant because he never went to college. The army looked like a good option for a seventeen year old Black kid from Mobile. What does this have to do with Ali? They all supported his decision in real time or in retrospect. I would add most of the Black GIs supported his decision too.
I'm not going to begrudge Joe his win. I do get upset when I see fans saying that was the only fight that mattered. IMHO, that's where a lot of the "Joe never saw the best Ali comes from".
Interesting that when examining just how close the FOTC was, many sign off saying “but I don’t want to begrudge Joe his win”. Please do NOT misread me - I totally get and respect not wanting to begrudge Joe his win. The man put his heart and soul into that fight - his one and only win against Ali over 3 fights. Important context. Perhaps my interpretations are wrong but it tells me that maybe there’s quite a few who feel that a draw or even a win for Ali in the FOTC is very arguable - but due to the closeness of the fight and out of respect for Joe they perhaps don’t push the argument as much they might do if other players were involved. Respect to all sides but in my mind, Ali was def. still rusty - no amount of sparring, however much it was, simulates the conditioning and sharpness gained from real fights - and Ali was devoid of two crucial, irretrievable, prime assets that would’ve made all the difference - his peak mobility and stamina, attributes that were also somewhat inextricably entwined. The Leonard (vs Hagler) and Tyson (vs Bruno) don’t hold for mine. For one, the opposition didn’t present as ATGs or ATGs at their absolute peak - as FOTC Frazier was. Also, Mike was a puncher, and beat Bruno based primarily on the longer held attribute of power (see Old George) - it didn’t speak for retention of his all round game - not least for the fact of the limited duration of his rematch against Frank.
The Holmes and Berbick losses still chap my ass after all this time because they fought a ghost. I can live with the Frazier loss.
Because for anyone who hasn't seen much ring action in years, you could always just argue they're not rusty because they've been sparring in the interim. It was. But as he'd shown throughout his career, it was hardly an exception. That's one way of putting it and a disingenuous one at that. The facts are he had 46 minutes of actual ring activity in a three year period. That time is so insignificant it doesn't matter who he beat. He could've beaten God himself and it still wouldn't change the fact that he was undeniably rusty. I think you missed my point by quite some margin. Well you were arguing Tyson wasn't rusty because of his performance against Bruno. If he was rusty, it wouldn't have necessarily showed as Ali was undeniably rusty against Quarry but it didn't show in his performance. Well he wasn't "back in action for a year". He'd returned just FOUR months prior. Elite heavyweights don't typically have a three year layoff, get out of shape in the interim, fight 46 minutes, and perform as if they never left 4 months after their return. No problem.
I'm currently reading McIlvaney On Boxing:An Anthology. It's largely a collection of contemporaneous essays so it is seen through the lens of when events occurred. That's a benefit. So much was about what Ali lost during the exile and how it was apparent at the time.
Well, fortunately that's not been my position, although Leonard did OK that way. Readiness for a bout seems to rest on a bunch of things, including physical conditioning, prior experience, sparring, and competition. Ali was a pro boxer who came in around his normal fighting weight, so I make the not-unreasonable assumption that he trained before Quarry. I also assume he trained before Bonavena. And before Frazier. He would have been sparring before all three. He'd had two fights against top 10 guys. He had been in numerous fights as a champion, so it's not like he's a novice awed by his first shot at the big time. (And that's not getting into whatever training he'd done during his exile, which I have heard was more than zero hours.) You talk as if time in the pro ring within the magic 3 year period is all that matters. Even there, he'd had very recent time in the ring against two of the best fighters in the world before he fought Frazier. Three fights in less than a year against elite opposition is pretty active for a heavyweight, even in Ali's era. dis·in·gen·u·ous /ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/ adjective not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. "he was being somewhat disingenuous as well as cynical" Although I suppose this is a backhanded compliment in its way, I don't think I'm feigning ignorance. Sometimes people disagree. Sometimes people are wrong. A cigar really is sometimes just a cigar. If I'm going to be disingenuous about something, it's not going to be stating my opinion about something on a boxing forum. I put it that way because that's how I see it. Let me try this from a different angle: What are you saying heavyweight contenders get from their 0-2 hours per year that they usually spend actually fighting in the pro ring that they don't get from training or sparring? I don't know what Ali would fail to get out of 45 minutes, or whatever it was, that he would have gotten out of 90 or 120 minutes. No, I wasn't arguing that Tyson "wasn't rusty because of his performance against Bruno." He's either rusty or he's not. Performing well doesn't stop you from being rusty. I was asking you whether you thought Tyson was rusty just based on his limited time in the pro ring before Bruno. Was he? My timing was off, so my apologies. But it wasn't as far off as you assume, I think. Unless you're saying Ali did zero training before Quarry between August and October of 1970. Ok. How much in-ring time do you think a heavyweight generally needs to no longer be rusty? 90 minutes? 2 hours? 3? 20? And how did you arrive at that figure?
The way I see it -if Joe fans won't say the first fight is the only fight that matters then Muhammad fans won't say Joe never faced the real Muhammad.
Peak Frazier was arguably the night he beat Ali. Lets put it this way, Frazier was closer to his peak than Ali was when they fought the first time at Madison Square Garden. Ali was never the same after he was banned from the sport for 3 years. He was still a great fighter, but he wasn't what he was in the mid 60s.
And maybe that Ali in the 60’s doesn’t do as good as the 70’s version either. Really who did Ali really fight in the 60’s that was as tough as the fighters he fought in the 70’s????? 50 year old Liston who took a dive???? Patterson???? His competition had something to do with him not looking as good. Hell Foreman was away for 10 years and look what he did
Liston wasn't 50 and he didn't take a dive the first time. In Miami Beach Cassius Clay beat Prime Sonny Liston. That version would have danced circles around Frazier.
Nobody knows Sonny’s real age. And I wasn’t talking the 1st fight. Liston was in shape for the 2nd fight then it got delayed and he said o well. Plus after that he was told to throw it. That was not a Prime Liston in the First Clay/Ali or whatever you want to call him fight. Just like Ali didn’t give Foreman a rematch because he was scared. Liston gets one??? Frazier and Norton 3 fights each. Foreman???? Yeah get my point!!!!
Ali beat Foreman by taking him to Zaire and Foreman didn't know how to travel and was in bad shape for the fight. It was a masterful performance by Ali over Foreman but Foreman looked like he had some voodoo stuff going on with him. It was Prime Liston when Clay beat him the first time in Miami Beach, Sonny looked as fearsome and as intimidating as ever in the early rounds. I mean he might have slowed down from his peak but he wasn't the sort of fighter who you would notice getting older, he didn't need too much speed or athleticism. He just walked you down and pummelled you. Liston wasn't far removed from his peak when Clay beat him. That version of Liston would probably have beaten the version of Foreman who Ali beat in Africa. But Prime Foreman, like the version who mopped the floor was Frazier would have, or could have destroyed Sonny Liston, or 1970s Ali. But maybe 60s Ali could have dealt with Prime Foreman, not the Africa version but normal Foreman before that, was very dangerous, maybe more dangerous than Sonny Liston, surely he was more a devastating puncher at his peak than Liston was, but that's not to say Liston wasn't a devastating puncher, he was too, just a more basic style than Foreman who threw absolute bombs.
The suggestion that Ali was scared of George Foreman is risible. Big George said Ali was "the bravest man" he knows. As to a rematch Big George wasn't sure he could win. I'll supply citations (links) if somebody pays me. This research is taxing. Lol.
And Foreman also says nice things about all fighters in his old age and sometimes changes his story……. Sure he would have had doubts. But if Foreman didn’t want a rematch why didn’t he just retire after his loss to Ali? And o yeah he was gonna get that fight if he beat Jimmy Young in 1977. 3 years later. In a lot of ways Ali was a bigot. Doing for promotion’s of fights etc…. I’m ok with that. But he went overboard with some of his antics.
