In my opinion, after really thinking on the subject... Ali could stop the vast majority of fighters out there. There's a precedent for it considering how many durable fighters he did stop. He was a big man for starters. 6'3. That kind of size behind some of the fastest HW hands of all time... His punches were very crisp, and he was more than capable of catching fighters with punches they'd never see coming. And it's the punch that you don't see coming that gets you, correct? He stopped the very durable Lyle, for one. Other fighters to stop Lyle? Power punchers like Foreman and Cooney. Jimmy Ellis was also very durable and just like Lyle, Ali got him out of there very late. Ali was the sole person to stop George Foreman. Ali was the sole fighter to stop the equally durable Bonavena. Thought?
I agree he stopped a few very durable fighters, but the interesting thing is that he did it by any means except for big punching power. Frazier was stopped on attrition, Bonavena by a combination of being tired, a lighting quick left hook that he didn't see coming, Liston was beaten mentally by the inability to land anything and Ali's psyche, Lyle got stunned by a brilliantly timed right hand from which he was never able to recover, although the 30 or so punches with which Ali followed up couldn't knock him down. Foreman was dead tired and like Liston, beaten mentally. The interesting conclusion is that having a weak jaw is not a big problem against Ali (see Norton and Patterson), whereas being very durable is absolutely no guarantee to go the full 15 rounds. I think one thing worth pointing out is that professional boxers hit ****ing hard, even the weak punchers like Ali. If you combine that with fantastic stamina, handspeed and fighting instincts, you have more than a dangerous opponent. Add to that the fact that getting cuts, bruises and swelling otherwise seems to depend on other factors than power, and it becomes even worse for the opponent. Let's not forget that Liston was badly puffed and cut after 6 rounds, the first rounds of which Ali mostly stayed away from Liston and one more round where he was blind and hardly threw a meaningful punch. This content is protected Cooper was cut to shreds. Terrel's had trouble with his eye from round 3 on (though that could've been a thumb), Frazier was swollen horribly in the first and third fight. During his second career he seemed to be less focused on his offensive capabilities and got addicted to letting his opponent tire himself out, but in his prime, i think he was fearful, sometimes borderline sadistic and the most annoying character you could possibly imagine having to fight.
Extremely well said, CP. Thanks. He tore Wepner to shreds as well, though that wasn't very hard to do. Quarry too.
Ali was a world class finisher in there. Most folks analyze things by looking strictly at punching power. Finishing skills is far more important once reaching the top 10 & a guy that doesn't finish fighters ready to go is the guy with the losses. If you got cut bad or wobbled against Ali, he got his opponents out of there quickly. He was an opportunist of the highest order.
I disagree with what ChrisPontius said about Ali stopping those guys WITHOUT punching power. The left hook against Bonavena and the right hand that turned Lyle into a defenseless mess were POWERFUL PUNCHES. Truth is, Ali could punch, he wasn't "handicapped" along the lines of having a "weak punch", but he most often punched incorrectly, drowning opponents out with quick flurries consisting of super-fast arm punches. Punching power is simply the sum of speed, weight, strength and technique. We all know Ali wasn't lacking in speed, weight and strength. And on occasions he had the technique down sweet, hence the knockouts.
Is there anyone he failed to finish? Probably only Macfoster. Buster Mathis he could have finished easily, but he carried him through to the end because of fear of causing him permanent damage. Terrell, of course, but most feel that he could have finished him as well, but chose not too of less humane reasons. Frazier in Manilla. But even though he never went down he didn't come out to the next round. He never finished Shavers when he had him out on his feet, but that was just before the end of the fight. I wouldn't say he really let someone off the hook.
Chris said all pros hit bleeping hard; but, relative to the heavyweight division, Ali had at most above average power, yet it is fascinating to see how he managed to stop durable fighters while never even staggering Norton in 39 rounds. On the face of it, it seems weird, but the circumstances are clear, starting with Ali's immense resources as a fighter who above all sought the win, not necessarily the kayo and definitely not causing hurt and hitting with bad intentions. He was mostly content to land and stay ahead on points against limited foes like Wepner. When, for whatever reason, he felt he had to go all out, we saw what a fighting machine he could be, against Liston, Williams (a literally shot man who he tried to spare unnecessary hurt), Foreman and Frazier. What made Ali a dangerous opponent was his combination of speed and accuracy. I happen to believe he of course knew technique but could be sloppy if the opponent's limitations allowed and probably often refrained from hitting full-power because of his second-career hand problems. Watching him work in the ring is watching the cliche master. He was a genius of his trade, head-and-shoulders above his peers, of the highest boxing IQ, so he could see things coming before anyone, thus even having the boldness of predicting rounds, knocking guys down going backwards and similar out-of-this world feats that made people slam their hats down and exclaim, "That's impossible!" He was thus able to slay horrifying monsters. Because he was the unique combination of skill, personal technique, smarts and heart, all of the greatest dimensions. In comparison, mere durability and power pale.
The Lead Right that kept landing on Foreman was a powerful stunning punch that lead to the KD and stoppage
This is how I see it, too. I also believe he started using more armpunching in flurries later in his career (especially after Manilla) as a way to steal points without really exerting himself. His punching never looked sloppy in the important fights, though. In for example the first round against Foreman, the first five in FOTC and against Williams, Ali showed how he punched when he really wanted to cause damage. Watching those fights should really lay to rest any doubts about him having punching technique, but...
Exactly. And, most important, Ali could do other things in there besides just wail away with power punches. He had the smarts to do what was necessary to win. And once he had a guy ready to go, they usually went. I'm sure if that shavers fight went another 60 secoinds, Earnie gets stopped in there. And at that stage of the game, Ali was a far cry reflexes wise, from the world champion of 13 years earlier.
Almost everything was gone. He no longer had any snap in his punches and worse technique and precision. His detoriation after Manilla was just a fearful thing. In Manilla he still showed great reflexes, timing, precision and hand speed, but just a couple of months later it was like watching another fighter. Like he had aged 5-10 years. He really should have quit after Manilla.
I thought, like Gil Clancy has said, Ali should've retired > Foreman. There is no way in the world a face first guy like Wepner should even make it to the 15th. And Ali was hardly sharp in that Lyle bout. And everyone thought Smokin Joe was damaged goods going into that Manilla bout, but he sucked it up for one last top notch performance, the way the greats can.
Well, Wepner was very durable. Ali actually was the first to KO him. But you're right, Ali looked very disinterested after Zaire. Considering how poorly prepared and undermotivated he was, I think he still looked alright against Wepner, Bugner and even Lyle. But it was plain to see his heart wasn't in it anymore. Manilla more than made up for those lukewarm perfomances, though.
It goes without saying that Ali went on to long. No analysis needed. However, I think the third Frazier fight was one of career defining fights. Had it not happend, he would have only been 1-1 against his greatest rival. I don't think the fact Frazier was past his best took away any shine, because Ali was undeniably past his best also, and they both performaned superbly considering the circumstances. Maybe I'm being a little selfish, but I felt Ali should have retired after the Thriller in Manilla. That stands as one of the greatest fights of all time, and was really Ali's most important fight next to Foreman and Liston I.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and all that, but yes the Thrilla would've been a great place for Ali to stop. At the very, very most, I think he should've called it quits after the Shavers fight. He won the battle but lost the war in that one, took shots (especially to the body) that he really shouldn't have been taking at that period of his career and health.
