Ali's power?

Yeah, it's a tough one.

 

I had a good debate about Ali's knockout against Foreman with JT a couple of months back. It was mainly based around Foreman's chin, rather than Ali's power.

JT was basically excluding Foreman's knockout loss to Ali when it came to rating the quality of his chin throughout his career, thus putting the stoppage down to exhaustion and not the punches.

I don't buy into that, as having a good chin isn't soley about taking shots when concentration levels are high, and fighters are feeling fresh mentally as well as physically.

It goes without saying most fighters are much more vulnerable late, rather than early. Depending on how a certain fight has developed, and exactly how powerful the other opponents fists are.

One fighter might well absorb and dish out heavy punches, then be stopped during 10th round of high paced fight when his opponents power is "reasonable".

The punches which put the fighter down during the 10th and knocked him out far out-weight the physical state of the fighter when it comes to rating his chin.

If a fighter does fall over from exhaustion, example "missing a punch" and the referee waves the fight off, thats a different matter altogether.

 

I have to say i'm glad to have an esteemed debator such as Stonehands sitting toward my side (it seems) of the fence. My thing was and is, i don't think Foreman was ever going to be under the same duress again. You see, even beside the exhaustionphysical factor was the mental side of things. This was also a mental stoppage IMO.

First the exhaustion side - Foreman played right into Ali's hands and completely punched himself out. Ali is possibly the only foe who could have achieved this under stationary circumstances. Added to this the heat and humidity was extreme, more extreme than George was ever to face again i'd venture. So we have two factors that are unlikely to ever be faced again.

On the mental side, imagine George's disdain and chagrin to find Ali had such immense support going into the bout. Ali had played all the right tunes and again, George was unlikely to ever see such popularity against him again. Then we have Ali taking all he had and then some while routinely talking back and tormenting, as well as popping plenty of accurate blows into Georges face at opportune times. Ali seemed immune to his power, and certainly not fearfull. Disdainful really. Get inside George's head by the time of the fateful round, utterly spent, next to no support, an opponent that refused to give respect, let alone lose, and (added to the rest of my ballyhoo) you have the makings of a very very rare event.

Bottom line - the culmination of factors, some extraordinary make me confident to say the Ali stoppage should not be held over strongly when scrutinising George's overall durability. I also believe George stated he could have risen. This supports my claim per plenty of mental involvement in the stoppage as well.

Very bottom line - totally spent both mentally and physically IMO.

 

JT. I was actually hoping you were not going to reply as it would be opening a can of worms, as I quoted Stonehands. However, your name happpened to be mentioned so you had every right to do so. Not that I'm going to back down in a friendly arguement.

The bottom line is, you totally discount Ali's punches which dropped and knocked out Foreman. I happen to take into consideration the punches and the "exhuastion".

Foreman's punch resistance can't be totally overlooked in Zaire, you think otherwise. I never said at any point when the debate kicked off that Foreman had terrible chin throughout his career when looking at the scales and weighing up the pros and cons.

The chin wasn't great in Zaire for Big George. Live with it.

 

Look, obviously the factors are three, mental and physical exhaustion and punishment sustained. As for "totally discount", that's not right. Ali is my favourite heavyweight and you will seldom see me taking credit off him - anywhere.

What i actually said was "

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I hope i never said you did :huh

Mate, live with the fact that others have different opinions. Don't think my view is extreme or will stand alone on this one. I might even be right

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Everything above which happened within the 8 rounds, exhaustion, tormenting, humidity, utterly spent, all taken on board and digested.

Thats all part of the game JT, it does nothing to convince me to change my mind. You have been saying Ali's power is underestimated on this very thread, making your case even weaker to an extent.

My point is, Foreman hitting the canvas wasn't just exhaustion and being mentally spent. Other fighters could have hung in there longer with Ali. Marciano, Holyfield and Holmes without a doubt in my mind, if they threw the same punch volume as Foreman and the fight developed in the same fashion. Yes, Ali still on the ropes.

 

I don't expect to change your mind.

This one will be rather interesting then, with perhaps a bit of egg for the finish.

Show me where i said "on this very thread" Ali's power is underrated please.

:hey

 

I read it at 100mph, rather than 50mph.

 

:yep


Of course Ali's power is underrated in some circles.

 

As you know, power aint all down to having an opponent looking up at the lights on his back. Ali's power was decent.

 

Right. Larry did indeed club many opponents into submission, while Muhammad tended to place his punches with greater precision sometimes. Pinpoint accuracy was the key to his dispatching of Folley, London and Bonavena. As fast as Holmes was, I don't think he was quite the sharpshooter Ali could sometimes be.

In Kinshasa, the final blow against Foreman spun George's head pretty impressively. Yes, Foreman was fatigued, but nobody else besides Lyle was ever able to deck George in such a definitive fashion, not Frazier (who nailed Foreman with some solid hooks in their rematch) or Cooney. Holyfield, Cooney, Briggs, Savarese, Stewart and Grimsley were all sizable and respectable punchers who took George further during his second career than Ali did, yet couldn't land him.

When it comes to punching power, trying to measure Ali's against Holmes is a little of an apples and oranges comparison, methinks.

 

Totally agree with most of that. I will say tho that even tho older, George was a heckuva lot more savvy second career, especially when it came to pacing himself. It took a while to sink in, but he did indeed learn a lot from that fight in Zaire. Lyle decked George more on pure power than anything, and hit substancially harder than Ali. George did show some superb whisker in his second career tho, anyone rating his chin anything below well above average is kidding themselves. Personally i rate it superb.

 

Foreman has said repeatedely that he was the "dope" in the "rope-a-dope". I am convinced that it was exhaustion and very little to do with his chin. Foreman was not kind of twirled down like you would if you were spent.

Additionally, George said that he was watching Archie count for him... this is not unusual for a fighter to do -take directions from his corner when down or hurt, but Archie Moore (his trainer) had a count that was slower by a multiple of 2. The ref, Zak something or other, counted fast if my memory serves me, and George was able to get up, but too late.

 

The thing about george he always has an excuse, real bad loser.