Ali's Second Reign ...

I agree that after his exile he was never the same. He was a different kind of fighter, never got his singularly fluid style, his legs (for a HW) back. Just not sure it was due to a lack of training and not just age; not old really, I know, but hard to compare him to anybody else in that sense.

 

Yeah, with the exception of Manilla his second reign was disappointing. But it's really no surpise is it? Here we have a guy that's getting older, who feels the effects of his many fights, a fighter that has accoomplished really are there is to accomplish and just doesn't put the effort into it anymore.

Before Manilla he still had some left and showed it against Wepner, Bugner and even Lyle on some occasions, but after Manilla he was just a sad, faint resemblance of what he once was.

He should get his dues for the contenders he took on, though. Lyle, Bugner, Frazier, Young, Norton and Shavers are not bad challengers to take on when you're 33-35 and already have beaten what there is to beat. Compare that to many other champion's reigns, Patterson's for example.

 

I think it was due to a lack of training in large parts. Look at the rematch against Norton, for example. He looks really good in that one. At least in the early rounds.

 

Could Ali have trained himself to be Cassius Clay?

 

No, even when he was in top shape in the early 70's there were some differences. In the rematch against Norton, for example, he starts to tire after 5 rounds. Before the lay-off he would have kept that pace up longer and recovered more quickly, and therefore won a more comfortable decision. His legs and stamina was never quite the same, no matter how hard he trained. His speed was a tad diminished as well, but that made less of a difference. When he was in shape he was still too fast for anyone as long as he could stay on his toes.

If he had been more discplined in his training he would probably have avoided his loss to Norton, and the fights against Mathis and MacFoster wouldn't have been so boring.

Holmes apparently claimed that Ali didn't train hard enough for Frazier. I don't know if he meant Manilla (was he still Ali's sparring partner by then?) or FOTC. If Ali didn't train right for FOTC he certainly was an idiot.

He said himself that he underestimated Frazier and wasn't properly prepared for FOTC, but that's a common claim from someone who lost. I put some stock into what Holmes says, though.

 

Yeah, I hear ya. Ali was a bit of a slacker probably in that regard. Used to hear that he loved surf and turf and champagne dinners every night. But isn't it funny that the only 'boxing' HW that can compare with him, that can even be expected to come close to him as a boxer in that division was himself?

 

Yeah, he was truly something. Watching him toy with respected fighters like Ellis, Quarry and Patterson while he himself was past his prime... For me he was one of a kind.

By the way, I loved that story about him and your old man. Great stuff.

 

Thanks brother, that's nice to hear on both counts. Ali took it to another level in the HW division. Had a way with it that redefined boxing especially for the big guys. That happens I guess, once in a great while, in different walks of life, what the Beatles did for Rock, what Sinatra did for the crooners, what Jessica Alba does for alot of us.

 

Amen to that.

 

Most amazing to me is that he did it without his legs. That he reinvented himself, to use an overused word, out of necessity, the mother of course of all invention. The power above his shoulders and the spirituality that Ali had we are not likely to see again.

 

Allahschild, you beat me to it... I was reading the thread and felt the need to point out Ali's pretty extraordinary run from Ellis to the first Norton fight. He really cleaned out the division then and continued to so do through the Norton and Frazier rematches (not to mention the amazing win over Foreman).

But yes, HE, his second reign was disappointing. But at least until '77 he was a very active champ.

 

I appreciate with his second run that he did seek to become more of a world champion...not just the starting point in Zaire against Foreman, but also the fights in Germany, Puerto Rico, Malaysia and of course Manilla in the Phillipines.

 

I think the Shavers fight damaged Ali. Ali said he had little relocation about the match, and fought on instinct alone. I have not seen it in a while, but I like to score it someday to see if the judges were fair.

 

An Ali fight post Foreman was an event, it did not matter who he fought. Particularly after FrazierIII he was the biggest icon the planet it really did not matter how he performed.

I can understand younger people looking at the tapes and the paper record and not being impressed, but what is not shown is Ali was a god in the late 70s, he could do no wrong.