Ali's take on Foreman vs Tyson

Tyson never really had issues with big punchers though especially big imposing Heavyweights with power.

Bonecrusher, Ruddock, Bruno, were all big men with power and Tyson still beat them all pretty convincingly.

Bonecrusher lost 12-0 against Tyson whilst not even attempting to win basically clinching onto Tyson at any opportunity to survive. I don't really that as negative for Tyson in regards to how he matches up against an old Foreman.

Douglas beat Tyson at range with his immense 83 inch reach fighting a perfect gameplan at distance.

Holyfield is a better inside fighter than Foreman and much more crafty and clever on the inside this also wasn't the best version of Tyson it has to be said.

Any version of Tyson apart from the Douglas fight from the Berbick fight up until his last fight when he went to prison I'd heavily favour Tyson to put a beating on Old Foreman.

The speed difference between Tyson/Old Foreman would be ridiculous and Foreman got hit alot in his comeback he got hit by 65 percent of Holyfield's power punches which shows a real lack of defence. If Foreman is eating that many punches from Tyson he's getting stopped I don't care how tough he is.

Young Foreman I'd make a favourite over Tyson but certainly not an old Foreman.

 

I always used to have Foreman winning this too. But recently I've been thinking it's a lot more even. Tyson had a lot of speed on Foreman as well as not being that easy to hit. GF would have to let Tyson blow himself out before taking over and that could be a painful exercise.

 

Can we have a primary source for Arum paying Foreman's opponents to lose please?

 

If comeback Foreman was capable of beating Tyson one would have expected him to have far more in terms of tangible accomplishments. He didn't do anything of substance outside of beating Moorer.

Smith had a better career than comeback Foreman so why should we assume Foreman was better than him or Ruddock for that matter?

 

Interesting, since Ali typically praised Tyson profusely. I reckon he thought what Cus did—Foreman is a terrible, terrible style for Tyson.

 

Foreman had to be far more careful and selective when maneuvering himself for a title shot. Jumping on the young wolves was always risky, and given his age, each year was a threat to his impossible dream. Hence why he prioritized puff and show to earn himself those. Doesn't mean h2h he wouldn't find the likes of Ruddock or even Smith and tear them apart. Up to around the Holyfield fight he was still rather excellent for his age, though the decline with each passing year was noticeable.

 

Theres no logic for him not fighting them if he felt he could beat them as he would have made more money and gotten a title shot earlier.

If he beats Ruddock he would have been able to force a fight with Mike Tyson

 

China was offering 25 millions for the fight to happen anyway. Foreman was ranked by Ring panel of matchmakers as the third greatest heavyweight to ever live based on his relevance in the money-making, crowd-attracting part of the sport. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he said so himself: signing with Arum or King meant faster shot at the title, but also being milked in fights against people who can still rebound, rebuild, and recover. Without the benefit of the hindsight, he could not take such risks and bruteforce the title shot.

A 39-old man can lose to the new generation of fresher, more youthful top contenders, and he can definitely be worn off if he matchmakes like there is no tomorrow. There is a difference between having a good shot at beating somebody, and the fight making sense in a long-term plan. Worst case scenario, they could start running like Tommy Morrison. He was very dangerous, but not invulnerable.

Tyson would not stick and move, that's the point.

 

I think you're over estimating old Foreman’s H2H capabilities.

Anytime Foreman stepped up in competition he was getting hit with a high percentage of punches.

Moorer landed 369 out of 461.

Holyfield landed 355 out of 584.

Stewart landed 281 out of 510.

Morrison landed 260 put of 572.

Foreman had no defense and was very easy to hit.

Fighters not known for their durability like Morrison, Stewart, Savarese, were able to take over 200 punches from Foreman and go the distance with him.

Foreman had good timing despite his slow hand speed yes but the issue was he couldn't land the follow up punches vs better opposition.

Morrison said himself he was easily able to take Foreman’s single punches because he knew Foreman would never be able to land the follow up because he was too slow and Morrison had a below average chin.

As I keep saying Tyson never struggled against big imposing power punchers he struggled with fighters who had movement or reach to keep him at bay.

Or fighters who nullified him on the inside by consistently clinching him to neutralize his offence.

Foreman is neither of those things he's a big slow plodding power puncher with a good jab but he doesn't combine any of the attributes above to beat Tyson.

Foreman would be right infront of Tyson getting lit up like a Christmas tree you're talking about the same Foreman that was on the verge of getting stopped by Alex Stewart.

Tyson is far too fast, too good defensively, Foreman would struggle to land consistently on Tyson and would get pummelled.

 

Morrison probably had more power in his left hook than Tyson

Holyfield had significantly better defense and counters than Tyson, and arguably better timing

Tyson would not turn tail like Morrison, which puts him in front of and coming in at Foreman more frequently

The sloppy swinging for the fences he took Holmes out with would not cut it with Foreman

Foreman could negate Tyson's head movement with like 4 good jabs and take the fight out of him pretty easily

Worst case scenario Tyson puts a beating on him a bit worse than Morrison, best case scenario Foreman's jab gets Tyson into the deer in the headlights state and then finishes him with far less punches than Douglas, Holyfield, or Lewis

 

But i think you're basing it alot on the Frazier fights but here's the thing....

Tyson has a considerably better chin than Frazier and is much more proven against KO artists or big punchers.

Tyson has much better varied offence.

Tyson is much more explosive and faster than Frazier.

Tyson is better defensively.

Tyson is considerably bigger than Frazier.

Plus comeback Foreman was much more measured in his approach rather than the ultra aggressive approach of young Foreman.

Well you've basically agreed with me here about Tyson's stand out attributes so i don't need to add anything here.

He did yes but Morrison still stood his ground and let rip with punches that's how he landed almost 300 of them. Morrison who had a glass chin unlike Tyson was able to comfortably take single shots from Foreman without ever being troubled.

Tyson wouldn't need to fight laterally because he's much better than Morrison with a much better chin. Tyson has incredible defence for an aggressive fighter who could make Foreman miss and any single punches Foreman did land Tyson would be able to deal with them like Morrison did.

I wouldn't say he ran for the hills Stewart actually threw more punches than Foreman and landed more and he was actually beating up Foreman in the later rounds and may of stopped him if it was 12 rounds.

Because i'm showing you how poor Foreman's defence was when he stepped up in competition in his comeback.

Not how i remember it from memory Holyfield beat Foreman like a drum landing over 60 percent of punches with Foreman having very little success outside of 1 or 2 moments when he stunned Holyfield in which Holyfield recovered very quickly like he did in the 7th round.

Yes but as i keep saying Tyson never struggled against big imposing heavy hitters who were bigger and taller him with a longer reach.

Show me an an example in Tyson's career that he got backed up or bullied by a puncher ? because it never happened Tyson's record against big imposing punchers is very good. Hence i don't know why you assume an old slow Foreman would be successful vs Tyson when he ate punchers up for breakfast.

Yes but Foreman doesn't have that many notable KO wins in his comeback his only real standout win is vs Moorer who had a suspect chin.

Foreman could stand there all he wants Tyson would beat him up with his superior hand speed, defence, combination punching.

Foreman had good timing and i agreed with you before about this but the issue was he still had issues landing the follow up punches vs better opposition. That's why apart from Moorer who he stopped with a single punch and as i said had a suspect chin at Heavyweight, he couldn't stop the better opposition he fought simply because he couldn't sustain offence against the better fresher younger opponents.

I told you before Morrison said himself in the post fight interview he could see Foreman's punches coming because they were so slow so he could anticipate the punches and take the single punches without being troubled. He also said Foreman could never land the follow up punches which is the point i've been making to you.

Tyson wouldn't be troubled by Foreman's single punches Tyson had a very good chin and defence that he could ship the single punches from Foreman and had the defence to avoid the follow up. Tyson was only ever stopped due to a prolonged beat down over many rounds which an old slow Foreman is certainly not capable of doing against a prime Tyson.

 

In addition to the upset win over Witherspoon Smith beat Weaver and Bruno. Id rate these wins over any scored by comeback Foreman outside Moorer so id say overall Smith had the better career in terms of wins. He has more losses but was fighting better opposition generally.

I think people may be overestimating Foremans chin. He didn't face many dangerous punchers in his comeback and avoided guys who could potentially knock him out like Lewis and Bowe.
Certainty there is little to give me confidence he can take punches from Tyson