All opinions welcome - Rating Floyd Mayweather as a skilled ATG

well i could write a novel it makes sense to me in my own little world

ill leave it there and just go along with your guys definition of skill from now on in thsi forum for easyness

just saw mcgrains post were arguing over wording really so i will jsut call it boxing for simpleness sake

 

fair dos

now lets get back to discusing mayweather

i think people have been overlooking the way to beat mayweater it is incredibly simple in theory. ODLH had the ight idea but strayed and got it inot his headyou beat him by pressure and in fighting.

the way you do it is simple out jab him

 

Wait a second...

Eusubio Pedroza beat a whole variety of very good opponents, but no one that could truly be considered "great". Yet, he was one of the most skilled, complete fighters that I have ever seen. Ditto Lopez (although I tend not to think that his opposition wasn't completely devoid of talent).

Which brings up the following question.

If a fighter continually demonstrates dominance over a long period of time against consistantly good opposition that might have been greater under other circumstances, and displays prestine technique in the process, then shouldn't that accord them the priviledge to be considered among the more skilled fighters to have ever laced up the gloves?

More to the point, and, more to the point, other factors come into play during the course of fights than skill. Was Paddy DeMarco any more skilled than Sandy Saddler? Nope. But he has two victories over him. Was Carmen Basilio any more skilled than Sugar Ray Robinson- even an aging version? I wouldn't say. Still beat him once, and came damned close to doing it in the rematch.

So, I feel that your argument of PBF's inablity to face anyone that you would consider to be truly great might prevent him from being considered to have "great skills" isn't particularly strong, to be honest. Mayweather had brilliant talent, and wonderful skills, and even though he might not be the most skilled fighter to have ever lived, there just weren't that many fighters that I've seen who were much better at what they did than he was.

 

If the jab and mover is also effective offensively like I said, "hit and not get hit", then he would have to be considered a very skilled fighter. I also described Frazier as a skillful brawler, so I wasn't dismissing all infighters as having no skill, I just think Mayweather was more efficient than Frazier. Joe's tactics could work against a not so devastating puncher, but if he comes up against a George Foreman, he can't take those shots he has too in order to get inside.

 

Hi GPater, I am a big Mayweather fan but thats solely on appreciation of his skills. I think Mayweather was undersized at 147/154, past his best weight and probably past his prime. BUT I don't think many in history beat him at the weight based on the fact he'd outland most. Leonard/Robinson/Burley probably have been too much for him at 147, although he seriously has a shot of 'old manning' both of them in their youth, as Leonard was and SRR had problems with Baldmir. Hearns probably beats him with the jab too, although FMJ has the better boxing skills, defense and speed which could negate Hearns and Hearns was a young green WW too. Napoles too probably beats FMJ, Duran I think is a 50-50

I think FMJ would beat Griffith but that is a tough tough fight. I think FMJ is too fit for Benitez who is similarly gifted.

I certainly don't think lower teir WW greats like Ross, Armstrong, Zivic, Cuevas, Trinidad, DLH, Quartey, Curry can beat FMJ, they are either too basic or not as physically gifted. I think he easily beats Cuevas, Zivic, Tito.

People ask why Floyd potshots at 147/154 in the DLH and Baldo fights, well its 2 reasons, very fragile hands that he doesn't want to risk throwing combos with, he broke his hand against Baldomir, I think he didn't let his hands go too much against DLH fearing the broken hands. Before the Hatton fight he had allot of hand treatment and he sat on his shots far more. He said numerous times he retired due to 'his body breaking down'

I'd like to see FMJ come back though as I enjoy his fights, but the longer he stays away the more faded he'll be on his return

 

Yes I've seen FMJ bounce up and down with predictable head movement as he walks towards a slugger and get decapitated loads of times :nut

 

1 I haven't seen but wasn't it quite 1sided? I think Castillo had most success with his jab than any of tool though to be fair

The jab neutralises speed and is easier to land on someone with speed than any other shot, its also the most underrated tool. However DLH couldn't regularly land his jab and gave up throwing it and many others couldn't land it. I think FMJ would have figured Quartey out as a little bit of a 1tricked pony too.

 

it was quite cose actually i think it wa a KO in the end if i remember right. but Sosa had a brillaint jab and out jabbed FMJ but didnt do much else and dint have much experiance or anything else and got beat

 

Hearns, Leonard, Curry, SRR, Burley, Duran, Napoles, Quarty, Ross, Armstrong, Zivic, Trinidad, prime ODLH at WW all beat him at WW and many others but at 130 he is in the top 5. you overrate him at WW look at his fights at 130 then at welter hes rubbish compared with the 2

 

thats the way to beat him at welter.

Quarty would beat him IMO. Chavez is a guy i think would beat Floyd at Welter but not at Lightweight. I do think pressure isnt the way to beat PBF you need to estalish a jab against him then you can set up your pressure ala Chavez or outjab him ala quarty would do.

At superfeather it really is hard to see who would beat him. i think Alexis would be outboxed by him and its a mateer of PBFs chin standing up to it because he has never had his chin tested to the caliber of Alexis. I dont think chavez would beat Floyd at SFW as floyds movement and offense are amazing at this weight. He would outbox Chavez on the outside and have enoguh fire power to keep him off. I dont think Nelson would beat him but he would pose him problems with his speed but i think Mayweather would prevail. I think Alexis has the best chance of those three. There must be someone were missing who could beat Floyd @ SFW

 

I feel the need to clariy somewhat, what I mean by my golden six.

They're not necessarily my favourites.

SRR was before my time and had stopped boxing before I began following the sport.

But I think if i'd been around then, I would have been a fan.

I've seen quite a few of his fights and he meets my criteria for natural, in-born boxing talent. The fact that he was able to move up in weight and still be a seriously competitive middlewt speaks a lot to me of his abilities. In fact, he almost took the light-heavywt title, before succumbing to exhaustion.

Ali was the first boxer I actually followed. While he was missing many of the fundamentals, he was more than able to compensate with sheer natural ability and speed. Watching him in the mid sixties was poetry in motion, especially for a heavywt.

SRL reminded me in many ways of Ali (smaller version). His speed and fluid motion came along just as Ali was leaving the scene (Unfortunately, Ali hug on a little past his best days and that taints his legacy for some).

Sweetpea was dazzling in his movement and at his peak, was almost impossible to hit cleanly. Movement and the ability to make decent opponents look foolish were his fortes. (These qualities run through my six).

Roy ?

Resume was a bit weaker than some of the others but a guy can only fight who's there.

Other than Darius (who avoided Roy as much as Roy avoided him) who did he miss ?

Signature victories over Bernard and James Toney.

A heavywt title over Evander's conqueror. Quite an achievement for a middlewt.


A dominaant win over Toney.

(I don't buy the weight-drained theory that much).
Roy pretty much shut him out and toyed with him. Who else did that with Toney ?

Arguably, Bernard was not yet at peak, but he was in physical prime and had been boxing for five years with 23 fights. And Roy won a clear decision over him.


I have to say I'm not a fan of little Floyd. I find him immature and childish in many ways and, unlike the other five on my list, I don't much care for the guy at all.

However, I feel I must include him due to his natural ability and boxing excellence.

(I feel he lost his first bout with Castillo, but he had the flu that night and he cleaned up that detail in the rematch).

The man has great defence and he can hit almost at will, and that for me, is the essence of what the sport is about.



These are not the six greatest ever, by any means. Floyd wouldn't make my top 40.

Duran is my second favourite fighter ever, and I would rank him in the top 10 ATG list.

But I just feel his success came more from his incredible heart and balls, more than natural born boxing skill.

His signature win over Leonard (a more gifted and bigger boxer) ranks for me as one of the truly great achievements in boxing. He got inside Leonard's head and took him out of his game. He forced Leonard to abandon his skills and fight the wrong fight.

I rank Rocky Marciano above some on my golden list. The list of six just pertains to God-given talent, not necessarily greatness.

There are other intangibles that IMO, make some (many) fighters greater than some of the six.

My list merely speaks to my own personal definition of boxing talent.