Ambers, Armstrong, and the greatest infighting battle of all time

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bujia, Aug 19, 2020.


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  1. Bujia

    Bujia Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Let’s have a discussion. I’ve heard some views here and there, but I don’t recall a thread dedicated to this fight. Not sure why, as I think it’s one of the highest level two way displays on film. Might be my personal favorite. Add to that the controversy surrounding both fights and it’s a wonder how this thread hasn’t been done to death, really.

    It would be great to hear from anyone who’s seen the fight in full and can provide any extra insight. The readily available footage, while pretty extensive, leaves out the dirty business that I imagine adds a whole new dimension in how it’s perceived.

    I’ll go ahead and start us off by saying that, even without seeing Armstrong’s transgressions, I disagree with most that he was the clear winner just based on what’s on film for most of us. I can’t help the impression that Ambers was often the matador to his bull. He never seemed in any trouble and rarely seemed uncomfortable or fatigued despite Armstrong’s ferocious pace and punch. To me, he looked like the guy who had Hank’s number.

    Not that it was a clear win for him or a schooling or anything like that. Armstrong’s torrid pace made that impossible unless you were a monster puncher capable of hurting him or slicing him up. The fact that Ambers was not makes it all the more impressive to me, though.

    He was able to nullify one or the other of Hank’s arms in the clinch consistently. While controlling that position, he was able to land clean uppercuts, often in succession, consistently. Several times when Hank looked to pressure him to the ropes, he would waltz him with alarming ease to set the fight back in center ring. He just always had an answer.

    Even if he was outworked, which anyone would be over 15 against Armstrong, I’ve never felt Ambers did anything less than fight him to a standstill. I’ve never agreed that this was just a case of one fighter getting the win on a technicality. Not even remotely.

    Your turn.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
    Bujia, Aug 19, 2020
    Bujia, Aug 19, 2020
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  2. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I've only seen this version of fight, but from what we have it seems that Armstrong got better of most exchanges to me. He didn't dominate, but I'd pick him comfortably as the winner.

    This fight was awesome, full of action and artistry of infighting.
     
    70sFan865, Aug 19, 2020
    70sFan865, Aug 19, 2020
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  3. Bujia

    Bujia Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Same version I’ve seen.

    I have no issue with anyone saying Armstrong got the better of the action. He did outwork him. I just feel like it’s a fight that rarely gets a different perspective because most people aren’t watching objectively. Not saying that as an insult, either. It’s simply unconscious bias. People go into it looking to watch footage of the great Homicide Hank in his prime and are naturally fixated on his performance. On top of that, they hear about it as a fight where he was the victim of an injustice, which only biases them further.

    Ambers is just the other guy. The opponent that the object of their interest is in the ring with. He’s looked at as a top fighter, certainly, but mostly just as one that adds to Armstrong’s legacy. People aren’t watching him and paying attention to the nuances of his performance. They aren’t going in to analyze how this guy walked into the eye of the hurricane, camped out there, and came out virtually unscathed.

    They don’t wonder why Armstrong was the one coughing up a pint of blood after their first fight, or why his eyes are swollen half closed after this one. Or they don’t realize these things at all.

    And even if they‘re among those who do realize most of these things (as I know plenty of fellas in this forum do), they’ve never really had cause to re-examine the footage in a different light because it’s just not something that gets challenged very often.
     
    Bujia, Aug 19, 2020
    Bujia, Aug 19, 2020
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  4. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Amber's is criminally underrated IMO He was a beast
     
    robert ungurean, Aug 19, 2020
    robert ungurean, Aug 19, 2020
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  5. Cecil

    Cecil Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That was simply spellbinding.
    Homicide Hank must of been the toughest SOB ever to fight his whole career like that mainly against bigger men without a plan B or C, but how how good was Ambers in there? Not that I’m a technical expert but I agree with the OP, the little nuances and subtle skills that Ambers displayed were extremely impressive.
    Great upper body and head movement while on the inside, sure he took some leather but he also made Hank miss plenty. He would step back and catch Armstrong off balance and catch Hank coming back in with some good shots, his footwork was excellent.
    The pace and intensity those two fought at over 15 rounds probably makes a mockery of this modern fighters are better conditioned argument.
    Thanks for posting this Bujia.
     
    Cecil, Aug 20, 2020
    Cecil, Aug 20, 2020
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  6. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    I thought Ambers deserved the fight. Not only did he give Armstrong hell but Armstrong fought the entire fight dirty as hell knowing he couldnt be DQd because of the rules in New York at the time. Elbows, low blows, headbutts, shoving, you name it. The five point deductions have been written for decades as some sort of robbery but thats total bull****. At the time in New York a fight couldnt be stopped on a DQ so the only recourse against Armstrong's tactics was to repeatedly take points away. He knew this and gambled on it because he hoped it would wear Ambers down for the stoppage. Great great fight and great performance by Ambers.
     
    klompton2, Aug 20, 2020
    klompton2, Aug 20, 2020
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  7. Cecil

    Cecil Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Even allowing for the points deducted did some scribes have Ambers winning anyway?
     
    Cecil, Aug 20, 2020
    Cecil, Aug 20, 2020
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  8. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Come on, don't be so soft. It was a good old fashioned war ;)
     
    70sFan865, Aug 20, 2020
    70sFan865, Aug 20, 2020
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  9. CharlesBurley

    CharlesBurley Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I watched the highlights and couldn't see any evidence of these fouls. Can you highlight them on the footage and give time stamps? If not you're chatting ****. I love how you think pushing is a foul princess
     
    CharlesBurley, Aug 20, 2020
    CharlesBurley, Aug 20, 2020
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  10. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Pushing is a minor foul anyway. A little dishonorable maybe, but it really does no harm to the fighter. The only time I know of that it hurt a fighter was when LaMotta shoved Cerdan and broke his arm.
     
    William Walker, Aug 20, 2020
    William Walker, Aug 20, 2020
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  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    If you need someone to give you timestamps of all of Armstrongs fouls then you should be talking to an eye doctor, not a boxing historian. But, by your comment Im assuming you subscribe to the idea that Armstrong was robbed. Lol. Thats funny. Next time try watching the fight without a blindfold... and yes, shoving is a foul and it will get warnings and an eventual point deduction. It may not be as serious as the headbutts, elbows, and low blows Armstrong chronically threw, and the shoving wasnt what garnered his point deductions, but it adds to the overall pattern that Armstrong knew he was in for a rough night and possible loss without fighting dirty, hence forcing Ambers to sign a contract saying the welterweight title wasnt on the line despite both fighters weighing under 147. People like to ignore that Ambers gave Armstrong hell in their first fight as well and that Armstrong also resorted to heavy fouling in that one resulting in him losing rounds and it was a different ref. That fight was a split decision and one round swing on all cards. So the narrative that Armstrong was the victim of poor officiating is as backwards as the idea that he got robbed of a fourth title against Garcia by getting a draw. Not only was that fight very close but that supposed title was so phony it could have been made of tissue paper. Armstrong was impressive as hell and one of my favorite fighters but the hyperbole gets laid on thick around him when its comes to trying to extend his already incredible accomplishments past what they were.
     
    klompton2, Aug 20, 2020
    klompton2, Aug 20, 2020
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  12. CharlesBurley

    CharlesBurley Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    If you can't point to where the points the deductions were merited, it shows you up as a fraud, which is what you are.

    I'm not an Armstrong fan and think he's massively overrated but he obviously beat the breaks of Ambers in this fight for anyone with functioning eyes. It wasn't close.
     
    CharlesBurley, Aug 20, 2020
    CharlesBurley, Aug 20, 2020
    #12
  13. CharlesBurley

    CharlesBurley Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Horse****, Ambers got whooped. Yes he put on a decent defensive counter punching spoiling performance. But he still got his ass beat.

    And @70sFan865 can testify, I'm not an Armstrong fan
     
    CharlesBurley, Aug 20, 2020
    CharlesBurley, Aug 20, 2020
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  14. Bujia

    Bujia Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I’ve got that dude on ignore. He’s a race baiter and I have no interest in him mucking up my thread.
     
    Bujia, Aug 20, 2020
    Bujia, Aug 20, 2020
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  15. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

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    Thank you for pointing me to this footage
     
    Richmondpete, Aug 20, 2020
    Richmondpete, Aug 20, 2020
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