American super middleweights of the last 10 years and some questions

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by bailey, Dec 30, 2010.


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  1. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jermain Taylor Pre Hopkins looked decent, and out of the American Super middleweights I think Taylor was the best on out of them all.

    Charles Brewer and Byron Mitchell were the best ones when they were around, Lacy aswell. But IMO Taylor had the most talent, skill and potential.

    Peter Manfredo got schooled by mexican Welterweights and light Middleweights in GOmez and Mora, so he is a disgrace. Echols and Green are similar level.

    Currently, Andre Ward and Andre Dirrell have shown potential, and IMO will surpass their predecessors Mitchell, Brewer, Manfredo, Taylor, and mos definately Lacy.
     
    realsoulja, Jan 3, 2011
    realsoulja, Jan 3, 2011
    #46
  2. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What is ur super Middleweight ranks?

    In my criteria I include what they have done in other weights (only recent accomplishments).

    1. Carl Froch
    2. Andre Ward
    3. Lucian Bute

    Thats my top 3 and they are pretty much on the same level. Also I wont see a problem with that top 3 arranged in any way, I have Froch #1 because he beaten Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, and Abraham. Also a close decision loss to Kessler. Ward has beaten Kessler, Bika, and Green. I think Froch edges him.

    4. Mikkel Kessler
    5. Andre Dirrell

    Then comes these lot:-

    Stieglitz - Got the WBO belt, but hasnt beaten anyone good.

    Sartison - Got the WBA belt, but hasnt beaten anyone good.

    Abraham - Lost to Froch (top 3), and Direll (top 5), and has beaten Taylor and also was a solid Middleweight.

    Johnson - Top 5 - 7 Light heavyweight, and beat Green convincingly.

    Andrade - Lost to Bute (top 3), and has beaten Stieglitz, Tsypko and Mack.

    Bika - Aint really top 10, just a tough opponent. A gatekeeper of the top 10.

    Out of those lot, Andrade, Abraham and Johnson, to me, look better than Sartison and Stieglitz even though the latter are belt holders.

    6. Libardo Andrade
    7. Arthur Abraham
    8. Glen Johnson
    9. Dimitri Sartison
    10. Robert Stieglitz

    Stieglitz probably going to the first to lose his title, maybe to Dirrell who is ranked #2 or #3 by the WBO.
     
    realsoulja, Jan 3, 2011
    realsoulja, Jan 3, 2011
    #47
  3. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    Not a bad list at all.
    I try to base ratings on results only rather than potential that some fighters never live up to. Kessler has the best SMW resume and Froch also has a very good SMW resume. Due to Froch losing to Kessler and Kessler losing to Ward, I would have to put Ward above both, even though I feel Froch has the better resume. I put Bute above Ward as I feel Butes resume although far from outstanding is better than Wards, and Bute has also remained undefeated (which isnt surprising at this time). How I have rated these fighters is on how I think is fair and honest on how I feel they should be fairly rated and not who I personally rate the highest etc. On recent form and resume It seems unfair to have Froch below 2 fighters with lesser resumes, but the loss to Kessler was only his fight before last.

    1. Bute
    2. Ward
    3. Kessler
    4. Froch
    5 - 10 are harder to rate, but in my opinion it would have to be something like and could be subject to change -
    5. Steiglitz (although he lost to Andrade, I feel he has done the better work since.
    6. Dirrell (lost to Froch but beat Abraham and has some fair names on his resume)
    7. Andrade
    8. Johnson
    9. Abraham
    10. Bika/Sartison
     
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    #48
  4. BEASTLY PEPE

    BEASTLY PEPE Guest

    :shock:I'm willing to bet anyone who thinks Froch will beat Ward, loser leaves this forum forever.
     
    BEASTLY PEPE, Jan 3, 2011
    BEASTLY PEPE, Jan 3, 2011
    #49
  5. BEASTLY PEPE

    BEASTLY PEPE Guest

    BTW why is Jermain Taylor in this discussion, he has no resume at 168 at all, his only win is against Lacy past 160. SMW is a fairly new division, the best competition and most money has always been at 160lbs.

    Things are starting to change now, there's a lot of competition at 168 now and big money fights, this new 168lb scene is far better than any SMW scene in the past. The last great American SMWs were Roy Jones Jr and Toney back in the mid 90s:roll: Ward and Dirrell are the only 168lbers for USA with a high skill level in over a decade.
     
    BEASTLY PEPE, Jan 3, 2011
    BEASTLY PEPE, Jan 3, 2011
    #50
  6. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    J Taylor was in the years 2008 and 2009.
    The SMW scene is actually weaker than its been for a while, its just America is taking notice of the division due to the S6 competition. Dont be taken in by name recocognition only. Fighters like Dirrell have done very little compared to many good European SMWs that you wouldnt know the name of
     
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    #51
  7. Brickhaus

    Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

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    I don't know if I'd say it's weaker. There's a lot less depth, but stronger guys at the top than any time in the past decade other than 2001 and 2006.
     
    Brickhaus, Jan 3, 2011
    Brickhaus, Jan 3, 2011
    #52
  8. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    I think there was alot of stronger times in the SMW division

    Just browsing the years and not looking closely, I can see several but 2005, clearly is stronger than today with 3 undefeated world champs who most had better resumes than the current top 10
    1. Calzaghe undefeated world champ
    2. Kessler undefeated world champ (undefeated and not suffering double vision)
    3. Lacy undefeated world champ (undefeated, and tell me an active American SMW with a better resume)
    4. Beyer (3 time WBC champ)
    5. Mundine (2 time WBA champ)
    6. Danny Green now a world rated CW
    7. Siaca (former world champ)
    8. Grant (former WBO MW champ)
    9. Reid (former world champ, and fighter that looked unlucky against Ottke)
    10. Andrade (undefeated at this time and looked unlucky not to KO Bute years later)

    I think that clearly proves a point when now in the top 10, you still have Andrade still who has been beaten 3 times now and risen, recently you had Magee who was put down 3 times and beaten by 2005 #9 Reid and is considered good enough as Butes next opponent and Reid also beat Brinkley, Butes last opponent, Steiglitz who lost to Andrade, Arthur with limited SMW resume of Miranda and Taylor coming off a KO and who has lost his last 2 SMW fights, Bika who lost to Soliman, Froch who was beaten by #2 of 2005, Dirrell who lost to Froch. Kessler of now who Ward beat and who beat Froch wasnt even well and suffering double vision, and Bute nearly KOd by already beaten 2005 #10, when they first fought.

    Consider G Johnson wasnt good enough to compete at SMW years ago and now after 1 win over A Green is also in the top 10, when Johnson was clearly being beaten at SMW years ago by fighters who couldnt make it in the top 10, now there are many picking him to beat highly rated Froch.

    Hope you understand this as so much gets made out of hype and name recognition rather than results and facts
     
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    #53
  9. BEASTLY PEPE

    BEASTLY PEPE Guest

    Taylor doesn't have a resume at 168lbs he had 4 fights there and lost 3 of them, his resume and body of work is at 160lbs.

    No it's just that you're a Calzaghe nuthugging troll and you're trying to pretend that the American 168lbers that fought 2000-2008 were decent.

    Every country has bad divisions or dry spells in certain divisions, in fact just make a list of the best British 147lbers in the last 10 years.
     
    BEASTLY PEPE, Jan 3, 2011
    BEASTLY PEPE, Jan 3, 2011
    #54
  10. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    bailey, Jan 3, 2011
    #55
  11. Brickhaus

    Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

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    This was the era I was talking about when I said 2006. And by 2001, I mean the Calzaghe-Ottke-Reid era. But there were large chunks of time when it was basically Calzaghe and a bunch of crap, and it's stronger than it was (but less deep) from when Calzaghe moved up to before the S6.
     
    Brickhaus, Jan 3, 2011
    Brickhaus, Jan 3, 2011
    #56
  12. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    Fair enough. That was an old post elsewhere that alot of people disagreed with and didnt understand. When I said it AA was thought to be a monster, and Froch deadly. I was trying to explain that they are good fighters but that I felt Beyer would have outboxed them even. This was met with ridicule, so I explained that Beyer beat undefeated D Green who was a SMW with major punch power and similar to Froch, still it was met with ridicule, then Green beat Flores and Froch who I like alot but know to be a bit limited and lazy at times clearly beat AA and then everyone went very quiet.

    Im glad you understood
     
    bailey, Jan 4, 2011
    bailey, Jan 4, 2011
    #57
  13. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Your obession with UK-American fighters is as transparent as Windex-wiped sheet of glass.

    Get over it, you warped/demented little troll. :-(
     
    hoopsman, Jan 4, 2011
    hoopsman, Jan 4, 2011
    #58
  14. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    What are you going on about :huh. I like fighter form other countries besides the UK and America. You seem like you have issues, now if you are not capable to debate boxing, go to the lounge and dont foul an excellent thread :verysad
     
    bailey, Jan 4, 2011
    bailey, Jan 4, 2011
    #59
  15. g.dog

    g.dog Active Member Full Member

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    90s smw were well better. calazaghe/ottke era stank!
     
    g.dog, Jan 4, 2011
    g.dog, Jan 4, 2011
    #60
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