An Era Where Holmes DOESN'T Get To 48 -0?

The why didn't he pick his title defenses more confidently in a weaker era?

 

Do you really think he picked exactly who he was going to fight? Dont you think the governing bodies and promoters had anything to do with it?
Name me one guy you would have CONFIDENTLY picked to beat Holmes. Thomas nah one armed fighter and even his good arm couldnt match Holmes. Page? Fat and Lazy tried to hard to be something he wasnt. Dokes? Didnt have it.
Always the same thing talked about in Holmes declining yrs. Not one guy out there that would have taken him. He should have retired 2 yrs befor he fought Spinks IMO his legs were gone and his reflexes weren't the same.

 

This is the pertinent question. I don't think he does so in many era to be frank.

 

So what you are saying is that the 80s was a strong era?

 

If you look at Ali, Louis, Marciano, and most of the short reign champions, they were consistently going after guys who were ranked in the top three!

Yes, that was common practice once!

Even if they lost, that is who they were going after!

We don't exactly get that with Holmes!

If he wants to know why history didn't give him his due, then that is exactly why!

 

Again theres sanctioning bodies and promoters involved. It's not like today where a top guy like Canelo calls all the shots!

 

I'm not saying whether it is or isn't. I was saying your question was the correct one, AND I don't think Holmes goes 48-0 in many era's throughout history.

 

Who beats him then?

 

This is going no where though

You see, this doesn't end well though. I don't think as highly as you do in h2h matchups For example

I think:

Lewis beats him. Clearly.
Holyfield to me is a 50/50 fight. Holy was great, and would, at his best, not follow Holmes around the ring eating jabs. Possible slight edge to Holmes.
Tyson beats him
Foreman beats him
Ali obviously beats him
Frazier at his best beats him. Will be closer than other fights though and a 60/40 fight.
Louis is almost a 50/50 fight but I would give the slight advantage to Louis is this case
If a past his best Norton comes close to beating him. That might be a 50/50 then no? Even if we say Holmes has the advantage. How much? Not much.
Frankly, at his best, with his crouch and movement Dempsey could get savage and turn the trick.
Liston is another close call

It's like this, Holmes was great, but I don't rate him against fellow ATG, top 10 guys, as you do. I think Larry would eventually get caught by these guys, and simply not do enough to stop the tide. He'd fire back and that'd be it sometimes.

 

I only have Frazier and a young Ali beating him only if he used his legs all night as hes not winning a jab battle and neither is Lewis who is extremely overrated H2H but to each his own. Liston gives him a great fight too.

 

Late 50s circa 1959 Liston would have been a busload of trouble for Larry.

 

Well we saw what happened there. The WBC ordered him to fight Page or be stripped, he said he would a couple of times (after Frank, then after Frazier etc) but then reneged. He was stripped of his only title.

In the meantime the IBF had been formed and were looking for validation and credibility. They awarded Holmes their title without him having to fight for it. From then on he very much had a big say in who he wanted to fight vs being told to. They didn't totally capitulate tho as he couldn't sell a Frazier rematch to them very late in the peace.

Up until post Witherspoon he complied but after that he did almost as he pleased.

This is a moot point. Wins aren't gifted because a fighter would be favored. 99% of people believed he would walk thru Spinks but we saw what happened there. This is why actual fights in the ring are needed.

Just because one thinks he would have beaten x, y and z doesn't excuse him for not having fought them. Larry is possibly the most excused champion in history when it comes to not fighting guys he should have been fighting (post Witherspoon).

One see's the common old cliches, oh he would have beat X, but Y lost to Billie Bob later and Larry had beaten Billie Bob prior or Larry beat Billie Bob after - he beat the guys that beat who he should have fought yada yada.

It's a sizable stain on the closing stages of his career. A guy like Joe Louis took on all comers and when he had a tough match he'd give guys a rematch.

 

This is the crux of the matter per the thread title. Two big things come into play. Firstly who you think beats Holmes head to head and secondly how you think he would go in a tougher era where you would contend not only with the wear and tear of fighting better fighters but where an off night could well see you lose.

The trouble in earlier era's might well be hectic schedules, more rounds, smaller gloves etc. It's hard to say.

Getting away from that murkiness i think he go well in Dempsey's era. I like him over Jack, i think Jack is a bit small to deal with a guy of Holmes size and skill.

I favor Joe Louis over him stylistically with that immense power, speed and countering.

If he came along at the tail of the Louis empire a case can be made. I'd favor him over Rocky, Charles, Walcott and co. and there's reasonable sailing from say very late 40's thru Patterson until say Liston in the late 50's. I'd favor Liston over him narrowly with both at their best and certainly favor Liston to dethrone an aged Holmes if he got thru that late 40's to late 50's period unscathed.

With Clay/Ali coming on then the mid to late 60's are out. I'd favor peak Frazier and Foreman so the early to mid 70's are a no go and Norton in there could likely take a win in a trilogy as well.

Then we have Larry's actual era. I favor Tyson H2H so his era for me would be out and i favor Lewis as well. Thru the Tyson and Lewis era's we have Holyfield and Bowe powering on as well so it's not a good era for anyone really.

I think Larry could do very well post Lewis all the way until now. I'd favor him over both Klits and everyone since.

So i'd be looking at post Louis to Liston and post Lewis forward.

 

I know your a Page fan and you keep bringing him up in regards to Holmes. Fact of the matter is Page would have been lucky to make it through camp as a Holmes sparring partner. Yes he was that much of an awful disappointment who instead of concentrating on developing his own skill set continued to try an mimic his hero Ali. It also would have been nice if he showed up in shape once in a while considering it was his job.
As far as the behind the scenes dealings I wasnt there do I dont know. All I do know is everyone put in front of Holmes up to the Spinks fight he beat. Like I also said he should have retired 2 yrs befor that fight as he was physically declining quickly yet still convincing put it together to beat Spinks in the rematch. Speaking of Spinks I rate him higher than all those rotating champions at the time. Were all entitled to our opinions and this is mine. No one showed the skills heart determination ring IQ that Holmes did during his time at the top again IMO