An Extended Appreciation Thread for the Lushless Light-Heavies; Historical or Otherwise.

I'd say the best place to start is the... well start! In 1909 and 1910 it was ammended that there were to be 8 weight classes, which I'm sure we all know. The second heaviest of which, was the Cruiserweight division(later renamed Lighter-Heavyweight, and then Light-Heavyweight by the British and the Americans, respectively). The first world champion, however, was Jack Root, recognised in 1899(or as late as 1903), by manager Lou Houseman, in attempt to avoid James J Jeffries and still maintain a chance at being champion.

So yeah, not exactly a dignified start.

Despite essentially being a catchweight and a money grab, I love the LHWs. Especially the old school ones. The blend of power, chin and intensity, combined with speed, skill and stamina seemed to find a happy median at 175lbs. Just looking through the division's past, it's made for some absolutely brilliant wars.

Julio César González vs Julian Letterlough
Bob Foster vs Chris Finnegan
Saad Muhammad vs Marvin Johnson 1&2
Marvin Johnson vs Victor Galíndez
Archie Moore vs Yvon Durrele 1
Julian Letterlough vs Demetrius Jenkins
Victor Galíndez vs Ritchie Kates 1&2
Julio César González vs Glen Johnson
Saad Muhammad vs Yaqui Lopez 1&2
Elvir Muriqui vs Sam Ahmad
Thomas Adamek vs Paul Briggs 1&2
Yaqui Lopez vs Victor Galíndez 1&2
Saad Muhammad vs Ritchie Kates
Eddie Gregory vs Victor Galíndez
**** Tiger vs Frank DePaula
Micheal Spinks vs Eddie Davis
Rocky Gannon vs Dominick Carter 1&2
Merqui Sosa vs Charles Williams

There's undoubtedly more too, just not off the top of my head. In fact, most of these are more modern, you could find thousands of insane fights with partial footage from the 50s and earlier that I haven't delved into, yet(meaning looking for wars, not just watching the footage). Among these are two of my all time favourite fights, and some of the greatest brawls I've ever witnessed, that's also not even including some of the beautiful performances from the ring wizards who often occupy the top places in the division.

So as you can see, I am a huge LHW fanboy. It's arguable top 3 in history, insanely good fighters have come and gone through the 175lbs division, throughout history. Ask any boxing nerd what was the best LHW era, and they'd tell you they're either the 20s, 40s and 70/80s. I'd be inclined to agree, these are the top 3. Although you could maybe the 30s is higher than the 70s. I'd personally say that the best is the 40s though, with the 20s at #2 and 70s/80s at #3. #3 is probably my favourite, though.

Why I'd say the 70s is weaker, it's because of the amount of top 10 LHW candidates that are in it(I know that's a tall order for a criteria, but wait till you see the others!). It has 2, Spinks and Saad, and then a ton of good/great fighters. Mike Rossman, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Victor Galindez, Mate Parlov, John Conteh, Marvin Johnson, Richie Kates, Yaqui Lopez, James Scott, Eddie & Johnny Davies to name most. Another credit to this era is its insanely entertaining. Almost everyone fought eachother, but more high level fights didn't get made in this era than the other 2. So it's an incredibly deep era, but what has to come is better...

I'd put the 20s next. Look at their roster, though: Gene Tunney, Harry Greb, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Tommy Gibbons, Jimmy Slattery, Mickey Walker, Jack Delaney, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Chuck Wiggins, Johnny Risko, Young Stribling, Pete Latzo, Lou Scozza ect. ect. it was an awesome era. Especially when you look at with the criteria I did the 70s. Greb, Tunney, Loughran and Rosenbloom are all arguably, and 3 being locks for, top 10. Everyone fought everyone here. I imagine there was some unbelievable fights too, unfortunately a not a lot of footage.

The 40s are unrivaled, though. The owner of the division, Ezzard Charles and his chief rival, Archie Moore. Aside from the 1&2 in the division's history, there's Lloyd Marshall, Joey Maxim, Jimmy Bivins and Harold Johnson, all of which have a case for being top 10 LHWs ever. That's ****ing nuts. That's just scratching the surface, though. Guys like Alabama Kid, Oakland Billy, Sam Baroudi, Bert Lytell, Eddie Booker, Holman Williams, Gus Lesenvich, Freddie Mills and ATGs like Jersey Joe Walcott, Floyd Patterson, and Charlie Burley fighting within the limit and making splashes of varying severity. You know it's a the best when Sugar Ray Robinson himself can't put a dent in it.

3 eras, 3 great eras, 3 unbelievable talent pools.

Talking of great eras, the last 5 years have been hot as soup, as well. Some brilliant fights to be made, and some fringe greats popping up here and there, some awesome styles and some amazing possible fights. Imagine a year where we get Beterbeiv-Smith, Yarde-Johnson and/or Bivol-Gvozdyk. That's just naming a personal top 3 for me, there's loads of nifty little fights which could be made at 175 right now. Look at Ring's Ratings, madness. That depth! As for my own(from a mix of eye-test/H2H and ranked by accomplishments):

#1. Artur Beterbeiv
#2. Dimitry Bivol
#3. Oleksandr Gvozdyk
#4. Eleider Alvarez
#5. Gilberto Ramirez
#6. Callum Johnson*
#7. Sergey Kovalev
#8. Jean Pascal
#9. Joe Smith Jr
#10. Badou Jack

*COME AT ME, YA BALLBAGS!!!

Helluva lineup, that's comparable to any division today, and that's not even the half of it. Looking back since 2000, or better yet the prime Roy Jones Jr era, you've had bare talent at 175. Guys like Harding, Dawson, Adamek, Pascal and Johnson were very talented but probably didn't get the best of it, then throw in the Kovalev's, the Hopkins', the Tarver's ect. crazy deep division. Ward too, even though he's not a career LHW by any stretch. The modern era of LHWs has been exceptionally talented AND competitive. Rare sight.

Now there's a reason why I love the LHWs, aside from my two favourites ever both being LHWs, and it's the amount of fan favourite fighters there. All time action fighters popped up left, right and centre at 175, as well as some technically gorgeous fighters. Guys named below are some of the most entertaining fighters in history. Saad Muhammad, Marvin Johnson, Yaqui Lopez, Glen Johnson, Ritchie Kates, Victor Galíndez and many many more are brilliant watches. Personally, I find Saad the most entertaining of them. Looking at the Conteh, Johnson, Lopez, Kates fights, it's an amazing run and very fun.

Since I'm telling you about fan favourites at 175, I might as well share mine. And aside from #1&2, these could be in any order with omissions given the flavour of the month.

#10. Archie Moore
#9. Callum Johnson
#8. Michael Spinks
#7. Glen Johnson
#6. Mathew Saad Muhammad
#5. Maxie Rosenbloom
#4. Julio César González
#3. John Henry Lewis

#2. Marvin Johnson
#1. Ezzard Charles

I've already wrote extended amounts on Charles.
Ezzard Charles, The Cincinnati Cobra, The Baddest LHW of All Time... Educate Yourself
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Ezzard Charles, The Thread.
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Ezzard Charles's Consistently Underrated and Unbelievable Heart.

I'll also use this as an RBR for my LHW fights. Feel free to also pay homage and pray to the 175lbs God's that be.

 

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1. Ezzard Charles
2. Archie Moore

3. Gene Tunney

4. Tommy Loughran
5. John Henry Lewis
6. Michael Spinks
7. Maxie Rosenbloom

8. Jimmy Bivins
9. Philadelphia Jack O'Brian
10. Joey Maxim
11. Lloyd Marshall
12. Harold Johnson

13. Roy Jones Jr
14. Mathew Saad Muhammad
15. Billy Conn

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The list is weirdly segmented as I think those are the different tiers, and those in each are interchangeable. I imagine I'll get come flack for this list, but I'll do my best to explain my decisions.

The list isn't H2H, hence the lack of Foster, but Charles' 3 wins over Moore is the main reason that Archie isn't #1. Those two are swappable imo, due to Moore's title reign and very impressive résumé in his own right. Charles' is better, though and Ezz' run as the top boy in the division was just as dominate Moore's, whilst not as long it was over better people.

Gene is a unique position. He's sorta like Charles, in that he smoked the division despite not winning the title. What he doesn't have; is the same tier résumé. His résumé is insane, but it's not as good as Loughran's, imo. The difference here is that it's impossible to ignore only losing once in his very long career and avenging that loss multiple times.

Loughran has an incredible résumé. The top wins are almost endless, and he actually fought to a draw with Tunney. His title run was exceptional too, but he was nowhere near as consistent. The way he officially owned his division was virtually unrivaled, only guys like Foster, Moore and Jones come close. The wins are there, but to be put over Tunney is too much of stretch for me, and it comes down to Tunney not losing fights he shouldn't have. I'd happily like a few reports of their fight, that may actually swing my opinion. Both Spinks and Lewis are undefeated at 175, the difference being that Lewis has the better résumé and was there longer, as well as being equally dominant. Spinks was amazing, make no mistake but Lewis takes and fairly clearly, imo. Maxie is also clearly below Spinks imo, again based on the consistency. Rosenbloom dienst have the consistency to hang with them, either despite having the 3nd most insane longevity ever. His résumé is threw the roof, but his best wins came over Lewis above 175, and he doesn't have a win as good as a prime Qawi. That's my reasoning for the order, but I wouldn't protest if you flipped it round.

These 5 are as thin as you can get. Literally got résumés stacked through the roof but picked up losses all over the show. O'Brian is tremendously underrated. His résumé is INSANE. he wasn't consistent, but he did win the title and fought EVERYONE. his résumé is littered with HOFers, one of the most underrated LHWs in history. I went with Maxim at #2 since he won the title, and in his prime was a respectably consistent fighter. He picked up ATG wins left, right, and centre. Whilst Maxim has an amazing résumé, it's clearly lesser than Jack's imo. Marshall at #4, check him out. That roster is deep as ****, you'll see a pattern of what these ATG LHW eras bring. Johnson is at the end since he has lost almost as regularly as Marshall and Maxim, but fought weaker comp than both. Winning the title is significant, though.

Jones has an underrated résumé at 175, but it's the way he dominated everyone before jumping up to fight Ruiz. The Tarver fight saw the end of him, but he did bag a win over Tarver, too. Through his run between 1997 and 2003 he was almost untouchable. It was insane. That ability difference is what gauged me to have him above Conn and Saad. Onto Saad, if you read reports of his early losses, or watch the Gregory fight, you'll see they're virtually all controversial. Once he got into the swing of things, he was an animal. His short, but legendary title run saw him gather a stacked roster, and along with his pre title run, his résumé stacks up to be better than Conn's imo. Especially if you give him the benefit of the doubt vs Eddie. Conn himself is no slouch though, and I happen to think he would tool Saad in a fight. Alot of Conn's best work came at 160 though, and that holds him back, for me. His wins over a prime Lesenvich are huge though.

Now, I know Bob Foster is missing, but ask yourself. Is someone who's best wins are Mike Quarry, an older, MW Henry Hank, Chris Finnegan and a shot MW Tiger really a staple LHW? his title run is awesome, but there was obysmal competition. You could throw him in there, but it's a stretch imo.

 

For anyone interested, here's the LHW lineage in its entirety.

Jack Root - 0 defences
George Gardner - 0 defences
Bob Fitzsimmons - 0 defences
Philadelphia Jack O'Brian - 0 defences

O'Brian never defends title and moves up, a long break on the lineage before I can find it again with Battling Levinksy beating Billy Miske for a claim at the title. He would actually lose a title fight to Harry Greb, bit not be relieved of his title until he fought George Carpentier.

Battling Levinsky - 2 defences
George Carpentier - 1 defence
Battling Siki - 0 defences
Mike McTigue - 4 defences
Paul Berlenbach - 4 defences
Jack Delaney - 1 defence
Tommy Loughran - 6 defences

Loughran moves up in weight, forfeiting his claim to the lineage. The following match up to start a new lineage was between Jimmy Slattery and Maxie Rosenbloom. Rosenbloom taking a controversial decision.

Maxie Rosenbloom - 7 defences
Bob Olin - 0 defences
John Henry Lewis - 6 defences

Lewis retired in 1939, undefeated at 175 and so gave up his right to the lineal championship. The successor was Melio Bettina, who stopped Jack Tiger Fox in 9 rounds.

Melio Bettina - 0 defences
Billy Conn - 3 defences

Conn's ventures at HW caused him to relinquish his claim to the lineage, and so Gus Lesnevich took on, and out-pointed Anton Christoforidis.

Gus Lesnevich - 5 defences
Freddie Mills - 0 defences
Joey Maxim - 3 defences
Archie Moore - 9 defences

After 10 years of dominance, Archie finally gave up his crown when retired without losing it at 175. Harold Johnson would then fight, and beat, Jesse Bowdry

Harold Johnson - 4 defences
Willie Pastrano - 2 defences
José Torres - 3 defences
**** Tiger - 2 defences
Bob Foster - 15 defences

Bob Foster retires without losing his title, and so John Conteh fights Jorge Victor Ahumada. Winning, via 15 round decision.

John Conteh - 5 defences
Mate Parlov - 0 defences
Marvin Johnson - 0 defences
Mathew Saad Muhammad - 8 defences
Dwight Muhammad Qawi - 3 defences
Micheal Spinks - 4 defences

Another break, as Michael Spinks tested the waters at HW. Relieving the division of a ruler until 1996 where Virgil Hill would controversially beat Henry Maske, on points, over 12 rounds.

Virgil Hill - 0 defences
Dariusz Michalczewski - 14 defences
Julio Cesar Gonzalez - 0 defences
Zsolt Erdei - 11 defences

The final break, as Zerdi moved up to CW for a fight, forgoing his claim. After that, Jean Pascal took the crown.

Jean Pascal - 1 defence
Bernard Hopkins - 2 defences
Chad Dawson - 0 defences
Adonis Stevenson - 10 defences
Oleksandr Gvozdyk - 1 defence
Artur Beterbeiv - 0 defences

 

I ranked Greb at MW, if he was to be put in, he'd be in Tunney's space. 3/4.

 

He's literally at 16.

Yeah, after writing my stuff about Durán, I'll be giving Foster and Spinks a deeper look. Specifically the Finnegan and Davis fights.

 

I love those two, have you seen González/Letterlough? Unbelievable fight. Reason why I like González so much.
I've never encountered someone who dislikes Saad Muhammad, ever! I don't think it's possible. His first fight with Johnson is my all time favourite(with Letterlough/González being my #2).

I need to get deeper into that time period myself, starting with Spinks and Galíndez.

 

Ok, of you say so. Present your case.