An odd result for a pirme Jack Johnson?

I have just read the New York Times' preview and report on the fight:

1. There is no mention at all of Burns' either being ill or having been ill and this having any impact on the fight.

2. No official weight given. A couple of times it is mentioned that Johnson was much taller and weighed 190 or 195 while Burns weighed 175 or 180. I know the old RING RECORD BOOK had the 192 to 168 weights, but I remember that old World Almanacs gave the respective weights as 196 and 176. Without a primary source that these men were weighed, I wouldn't draw too much of a conclusion from the weights.

3. Burns entered the ring the betting favorite at 6 to 4 in Australia. This does seem a bit odd if he were ill. Could they have kept it that secret? Also, the Times mentioned that Burns bet heavily on himself. This just doesn't jive with Burns being ill.

4. The betting odds in Australia were a big surprise in America where most observers, including Jeffries, Langford, Sullivan, Corbett, etc were picking Johnson and there was very little Burns support.

5. I would like to see primary sources that Burns was ill and/or that he really weighed only 168.

 

There were a lot pre-arranged draws back in those days.

Wouldn't be surprised if this was one of them.

 

Prearranged Draw? Burns got the hiding of his life ,the police stepped in because he was in danger of sustaining permanent injuries .:huh

 

There's been some discussion of Johnson-O'Brien on this thread.

There's an existing Johnson-O'Brien thread, if you want to revive/review it.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22584&highlight=johnson+o'brien

My take on Johnson-O'Brien is: that Johnson didn't prepare; O'Brien made a good, game fight; O'Brien landed in greater quantity, but never endangered Johnson; Johnson landed the harder punches and did put O'Brien in trouble; the draw was a just decision; no one was interested in seeing O'Brien meet a prepared Johnson in a long fight.

 

The crowd booed lustily ,both Johnson's lack of effort and disrespect to the public by coming in out of shape and hungover ,and O Brien's track _meet tactics. To get a flavour of O Brien ,you can catch a clip of him "fighting" Burns to a draw on you tube, he runs like a thief.
I dont think anyone wanted a repeat of that sorry show.

 

This still equals a subpar performance no matter what people might surmise if a longer fight had occured or if you blame preparation. Preparation is a huge part of excellence. There is no excuse for an all-time great heavyweight to incur a draw versus a fighter 40 lbs. lighter, even O'Brien. I can not see my way around this.

 

Very interesting.

 

Even if we dont make any alowance for Johnsons lack of preparation:

1. Isnt O'Brien the type of fighter that several other ATGs have had problems with eg Louis Conn.

2. Didnt the people who gave the fight to O'Brien basicaly do so because of the size disparity as a sympathy vote.

 

You are right ,you can't excuse Johnson's F**k you attitude to the public ,
coming in the ring out of shape and hungover ,was nobodies fault but his own ,but I think you are bound to take it into account when evaluating how the no dec 6 rounder went. O Brien couldnt punch so Johnson was not in danger of losing his crown and took cynical advantage of the situation, no one said he was of an admirable character.It was definitely a sub par performance whichever way you slice it,what would have been the result if the fight was scheduled to a decision and Johnson was in shape do you think? Bearing in mind O Brien was twice kod by Ketchel.

 

Another way to consider it is that Johnson basically didnt train properly or approach fights seriously from about the Jeffries fight on, yet was still good enough not to lose his title until the Willard fight and even after that not to lose for another 7 years or so. What other all time great could do that? Dempsey was thrashed by Tunney twice, Struggled with Sharkey, once he started to let Training slip. It didnt take Tyson long to get KOd by buster Douglas once his training slipped after he won the title. Ali lost plenty in his step after the 3 year layoff and it didnt take long for him to lose to Frazier. Even Louis struggled to come back after his layoff from training, although admittedly he was very old. Johnson was good enough to not train seriously and yet still his title survived. He was one of the best. In fact, it is possible that he was the best.

 

Well ,I agree with you ,but I'm trying to be as objective as possible.
It took a man in the best shape of his life 26rds to beat a 37 year old fat Johnson in a fight that was fought in Havana in April.Despite what others may aver, Willard said many times "it was hot as hell in that ring".
I have looked up average temperatures for April [ the month of the Willard fight]
They range from 22 celsius/71.6 fahrenheit to 34 celsius/93.2 fahrenheit.
26 rounds in that at the age of 37 ,fighting a Giant is a pretty good acheivement I think, especially as he was in front in the first two thirds of the fight.

 

Come on. Who did Johnson officially beat after Willard who was worth a ****? He was used-up. Dempsey fought countless exhibitions against no-hopers post Black Tuesday but we hardly use that feather for his glorified cap. You must know this is a silly argument.

 

Of course Johnson and OBrien were both the same age [31].

 

Tom Cowler was ok.

Probably better than most of Johnsons title defence oponents if we get into it.