An unbiased look at Fury's top 10 opponents

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by NEETzschean, Dec 27, 2021.


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  1. lobk

    lobk Original ESB Member Full Member

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    You know how stupid your post are? You list Wlad as Fury's greatest win yet you claim he isn't anything. You know how stupid that makes you. Also who has Wilder beat? KO C level doesn't make you great.

    Anyway this is the last I'll post on an obvious troll thread.
     
    lobk, Dec 31, 2021
    lobk, Dec 31, 2021
    #151
    kriszhao and MarkusFlorez99 like this.
  2. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Valuev doesn't have to be very good to be better than the likes of Jennings. I don't see any amount of spin making any Ortiz victims as good as he is and given Ortiz current age that is not likely to change. Who cares if Ortiz victory over Jennings was uncontroversial? Last I checked Oscar Rivas uncontroversially knocked Jennings out and nobody is making Rivas out to be anything special or accussing the top guys of avoiding him.

    Ortiz hasn't fought the guys who beat Parker and Whyte so that's a totally empty and meaningless argument. Ortiz can't lose in the boxing ring to guys he won't fight. Ortiz hype seems to be totally based on giving Wilder problems and what people speculate he could have done not on actual tangible accompishments
     
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    #152
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  3. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    A lot of this seems to be Fury getting opportunities other fighters didn't get and that he hadn't necessarily done much to deserve. Wladimir was going to lose at some point. He was aging, showing signs of decline in his prior fight and his reign was coming to an end. It seems like Fury was just in the right place at the right time and if it hadn't been Fury it would have been someone else either then or very soon after. Wladimir lost his very next fight by tko and then retired never to fight again. Those are not the actions of someone at the top of their game. Had Fury beaten Klitschko back in 2012 when Wladimir was still in his prime that would be a far more impressive win in my view but he didn't.

    With Deontay Wilder, there are a number of guys I'd give an excellent chance of beating him like Povetkin, Wladimir Klitschko, Oleksandr Usyk, Joe Joyce, etc but aside from Fury he didn't fight any of them. Had he fought and beaten these guys Fury's wins over him would be more impressive because Wilder would have proven himself against the best but he never did. Unfortunately, given who Wilder fought we don't have a good gauge of how good he is. We can conclude he is better than Bryant Jennings and Bermane Stiverne but that's not saying much.
     
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    #153
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  4. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Rivas's victory was uncontroversial but he struggled by comparison, he was arguably losing the fight at the time of the 12th round stoppage. If you don't think it matters whether a victory is controversial or not or dominant or not then it just shows once against that you have no ability to discern context. Whyte and Parker got SD's against Chisora: a fighter who was regarded as a shopworn journeyman when Fury completely dominated and schooled him 7 years ago. The only solid frames of reference we have for Ortiz vis a vis Parker and Whyte are Cojanu and Allen, who Ortiz defeated in far more dominant fashion.

    "Ortiz hype seems to be totally based on giving Wilder problems"

    This is just your ignorance, Ortiz has been regarded as a nightmare since at least 2015, before anyone suggested that he'd fight Wilder and when he was still targeting Wlad. Even Hearn, who has zero incentive to boost Ortiz, was saying recently that "no one wants to fight Ortiz" and this is an officially 42.5 year old Ortiz. I don't think this has been true for a couple of years but it used to be commonly acknowledged by guys like Fury and Chisora. Abel Sanchez said that he wouldn't let de-facto SHW gold medalist 7-0 pro Joe Joyce fight a 40 year old, post-Wilder 1 Ortiz. He was the epitome of a high risk, low reward fighter and didn't have a powerful promoter who wanted to advance his career until he signed with PBC. In 2016 Hearn said that Ortiz was a very risky fight but "we'll take it if it makes sense". Clearly it didn't make sense for Hearn and AJ so Ortiz left Matchroom looking for a title shot.
     
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    #154
  5. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    How Ortiz is perceived or avoided doesn't change the fact that his resume is extremely unimpressive. When your best win is someone like Bryant Jennings you don't have a good resume. If we are rating Wilder's win over Ortiz on what Ortiz has actually achieved in the ring then it doesn't look very impressive.

    Also given how rampantly fighters duck potentially dangerous opponents I don't think we can infer much even if Ortiz was actively avoided. I doubt many heavyweights are eager to face Filip Hrgovic either that doesn't mean we can assume he would beat everyone who doesn't fight him. Given AJ lost to Andy Ruiz in real life ducking Luis Ortiz isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    #155
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  6. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    "hadn't necessarily done much to deserve"

    Fury and won several eliminators and was regarded as the No.1 contender, many fighters got the opportunity and 22 failed consecutively. The idea that Wlad was there for the taking only appeared retrospectively to discredit Fury, the win over Jennings's wasn't any different to his wins over Ibragimov or Haye, minus the holding and leaning that he got away with against Haye. Wlad was a year removed from a career best performance, he was still regarded as being at or near the top of his game. Wlad had recently signed a 5 fight extension to his TV deal in Germany, so confident was he that he was not in significant decline. Then in his next fight 17 months later, inactive, away from home and having been schooled by Fury, he went life and death with 27.5, 18-0, star amateur, 2 defence champ AJ. The 17 months younger, active Wlad in Germany would have likely gone unbeaten for another 5 fights and retired had he not fought Fury. In 2012, Fury was 23/24 years old and schooling Kevin Johnson. At 27, Wlad was getting splattered by Sanders and Brewster. Modern heavyweights typically hit their primes in their mid-30's (let alone an ultra disciplined HW like Wlad) and Fury was fighting an 11 year undefeated super-champ in what was his first championship fight, not a Martin or even a Stiverne.

    "With Deontay Wilder, there are a number of guys"

    Wlad was chasing the Fury rematch and then the AJ payday. Povetkin failed a couple of drugs tests and ultimately fought AJ after a war with Price. Usyk didn't move up to HW until 2019 and was chasing AJ, who he beat conclusively. Joyce was still being steered away from Ortiz in 2019, as his own trainer admitted. There's no way Wilder would have got much credit for these wins anyway: Wlad and Povetkin would have been shot, Usyk would have been a cruiserweight with no heavyweight record and Joyce would have been another Breazeale with even lower quality wins and less pro experience. If it were easy to put together 10 consecutive heavyweight defences with 9 by KO, even against less than stellar opposition, we'd see it done far more frequently. But in practice, heavyweight champs have the habit of losing to McCall's, Sanders's and Ruiz's. Not Wilder though, which is held against him!
     
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    #156
  7. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Maybe Ortiz's resume isn't impressive by your standards because he's been heavily avoided over the years.

    Whyte's best win is a controversial UD against Parker in Britain

    Parker's best win is a controversial MD against Ruiz in NZ

    I don't think these wins are more impressive than outboxing and KO'ing Jennings in the 7th.

    If a heavyweight KO'd Hrgovic I would regard it as a very impressive win, regardless of whether he's beaten a Chisora or Parker by that point. Everyone knows he's a high quality and very dangerous fighter, which is why he's avoided.
     
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    #157
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  8. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    When did I claim "Wlad isn't anything"? You have no reading comprehension so will waste no more time on you.
     
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    NEETzschean, Jan 1, 2022
    #158
  9. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Going into the fight with Wladimir, Tyson's best win was Derek Chisora. His resume was totally unexceptional and certainly didn't make him any sort of standout contender. Wladimir would have been perfectly justified in fighting someone else. Agit Kabayel clearly beat a prime Chisora and nobody I know of is calling for the top fighters at heavyweight to face him. It's revisionism to claim Fury had done anything substantial to deserve a title shot. Wladimir could have fought a rematch with Povetkin or Ortiz, etc. Given Wladimir only fought 1 or 2 times a year and actually lost in 2017 a lot of additional title defenses seems unlikely. Were probably talking 2 or 3 at most.

    On the subject of Wladimir's decline, people were saying he was declining based on the Jennings fight. It didn't only spring up after the Fury fight as one notes if you look at old postings on message boards. His results afterward also don't back up him being in his prime as he lost his very next fight and then retired. The loss to AJ has also not aged well given AJ's subsequent defeats.
     
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    Cojimar 1946, Jan 1, 2022
    #159
  10. miniq

    miniq AJ IS A BODYBUILDING BUM Full Member

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    Tyson Fury has begun his training for the new year

    The year of wake up and smell the competition

    No man will be spared from this human gorilla

    Usyk he's coming for you, you small dosser!

    First he needs to eat a banana called Dillian Whyte. A big pudding.
     
    miniq, Jan 1, 2022
    miniq, Jan 1, 2022
    #160
  11. kriszhao

    kriszhao Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ortiz is a steroid cheat who's power magically disappeared after he was popped. since then he literally had to have a scrub take a dive in the first round.
     
    kriszhao, Jan 1, 2022
    kriszhao, Jan 1, 2022
    #161
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