An unbiased look at Wilder’s top 10 opponents

NEETzschean · Dec 29, 2021

BubblesUK said: ↑

"Bum" is relative.

AJ, Wlad and Lennox all lost to fighters that they were strongly favoured to beat - these are often over exaggerated.

AJ was very highly regarded at the time, losing to a fringe contender was a shock.
But Ruiz wasn't exactly a bum - he was a fringe contender, he had already achieved more than Ortiz just by going 50/50 with Parker.

Sure, Ruiz had good night's and bad nights, but on form he's always been a potential handful.

Ruiz at that point would still be Wilder's best win - his self-destruction afterwards may have ruined him, but he was a lot more respectable an opponent than some want to give credit for.
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"just by going 50/50 with Parker"

More pretending that Parker is a top HW. Parker has been exposed multiple times now, as has Ruiz. These wins/loss have aged poorly and will continue to do so because they were always based on hype. AJ's had two 30/70 bouts in his career (Wlad, Usyk) went life and death and lost one. He's also lost to a 10/90. He'll probably lose next time as a 2/1 underdog. Losses and their context matter in judging a fighter's quality.

Wilder fought his fair share of Ross Puritty's, Oliver McCall's, Corrie Sanders's and Andy Ruiz's, he just didn't get KO'd by them.

NEETzschean · Dec 29, 2021

VG_Addict said: ↑

Unbeaten doesn't mean **** when you fight bums.

Ortiz's only half-decent win is Jennings.
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It's also a better win than Whyte or Parker have had in their careers.

BubblesUK · Dec 29, 2021

NEETzschean said: ↑

It's also a better win than Whyte or Parker have had in their careers.
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That you can say something as ludicrous as that in a thread you titled "unbiased" says a lot.

This is a waste of time.

NEETzschean · Dec 29, 2021

BubblesUK said: ↑

That you can say something as ludicrous as that in a thread you titled "unbiased" says a lot.

This is a waste of time.
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All of Parker and Whyte's best wins have an asterisk or two attached, they have worse losses and their comparative performances are not as good as Ortiz's against the same opponents. It's also not his fault that no one wanted to fight him pre-2019, as even rival Hearn admits.

VG_Addict · Dec 29, 2021

NEETzschean said: ↑

"just by going 50/50 with Parker"

More pretending that Parker is a top HW. Parker has been exposed multiple times now, as has Ruiz. These wins/loss have aged poorly and will continue to do so because they were always based on hype. AJ's had two 30/70 bouts in his career (Wlad, Usyk) went life and death and lost one. He's also lost to a 10/90. He'll probably lose next time as a 2/1 underdog. Losses and their context matter in judging a fighter's quality.

Wilder fought his fair share of Ross Puritty's, Oliver McCall's, Corrie Sanders's and Andy Ruiz's, he just didn't get KO'd by them.
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Parker was a titleholder. That puts him above most of Wilder's opponents.

Wilder didn't even try to unify against Charles ****ing Martin.

The Real Lance · Dec 29, 2021

NEETzschean said: ↑

All of Parker and Whyte's best wins have an asterisk or two attached, they have worse losses and their comparative performances are not as good as Ortiz's against the same opponents. It's also not his fault that no one wanted to fight him pre-2019, as even rival Hearn admits.
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it's like you don't now how to properly look at records....jeez...

BubblesUK · Dec 29, 2021

The Real Lance said: ↑

it's like you don't now how to properly look at records....jeez...
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There's no need to look at them properly if what you're trying to do is spin everything up in fanboi fashion to make your pet fighter look better.

There is a good reason why Wilder fanbois always seem compelled to do this for Ortiz, but AJ fanbois don't seem to feel like they have to invent a resume for Pov, Wlad, Parker, etc.

This thread is a joke and the attempt to call it unbiased is the punchline... It's right there in the title and we still somehow got to 8 pages.

exocet76 · Dec 29, 2021

BubblesUK said: ↑

There's no need to look at them properly if what you're trying to do is spin everything up in fanboi fashion to make your pet fighter look better.

There is a good reason why Wilder fanbois always seem compelled to do this for Ortiz, but AJ fanbois don't seem to feel like they have to invent a resume for Pov, Wlad, Parker, etc.

This thread is a joke and the attempt to call it unbiased is the punchline... It's right there in the title and we still somehow got to 8 pages.
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It's mental illness to be fair..
It's not like it's just an opinion either it's as clear as day to those of us who are looking without the fanboy bias.
It's trying to have your cake and eat it.
Wilder's resume is the weakest by far of the top 5 guys in the division.

/ THREAD

VG_Addict · Dec 29, 2021

exocet76 said: ↑

It's mental illness to be fair..
It's not like it's just an opinion either it's as clear as day to those of us who are looking without the fanboy bias.
It's trying to have your cake and eat it.
Wilder's resume is the weakest by far of the top 5 guys in the division.

/ THREAD
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Wilder's resume is one of the weakest for a HW titleholder in boxing history.

exocet76 · Dec 29, 2021

VG_Addict said: ↑

Wilder's resume is one of the weakest for a HW titleholder in boxing history.
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It''s horrible and this clown has been trying to defend it whilst diminishing Joshua.
I'm not the biggest fan of Joshua but he's the only one established at heavy who's tried to fight everyone.
He's lost a couple and avenged one but you can't seriously call him out and then try and elevate Wilder it's nonsense.

Kiwi Casual · Dec 29, 2021

I thought it was top ten opponents, not fights. There's a difference you know.

Pugilist_Spec · Dec 29, 2021

NEETzschean said: ↑

You ignored the fact that it was Holmes's first championship fight (i.e. as a contender, not a prime dominant champion) and Norton was extremely experienced in beating opponents with the same style as Holmes, had just come off a win over Young. It's questionable whether Ali won a single fight against Norton, Holmes's win was less controversial albeit close and light punching 20-5-2 Young had schooled and dropped prime Foreman. I don't think the inexperienced "prime Ali" from the 60's would have had much chance against a rangier and more modern athlete in prime Holmes, who had spent 4 years living with Ali in the 70's as a sparring partner. Holmes didn't start losing to much smaller men until he was in his mid 30's, Ali lost to one before he was 30. And Norton was far less versatile, getting KO'd early by any big puncher he faced and even a light punching 188 pound journeyman earlier in his career.

I'm sure a chain could be made of lightweights who beat welters, who beat middleweights, who beat heavyweights. But it doesn't prove that lightweights could beat heavyweights. You use the same logic to suggest that heavyweights from 50 years ago would be competitive with the top men today. The closest thing to a modern SHW in the 80's was 6'4, 225 lbs 25 year old less active contender Cooney, who gave 32 year old dominant champ Holmes a competitive fight over 13 rounds. None of these guys fought a modern SHW, none of them fought a southpaw of any quality. Louis said he never would, Holyfield was the only guy pre-Klitschko to fight them and he lost 3/4 times, openly admitting that he had a problem with them. The HW division is, like all sports, far more scientifically and technically advanced these days, with 50 years of history to learn from and far more global; half the world isn't prevented from competing by political and economic walls. 4 of Lewis's 7 listed non-walkover losses were to Soviet school opponents, maybe they would have been top heavies if they'd been allowed to turn pro.

Jimmy Young wasn't thought to be a tough opponent for Foreman but Foreman got schooled and almost stopped. Ron Lyle dropped Foreman heavily twice and almost stopped him and Shavers was a bigger puncher than Lyle. Quarry beat Lyle and KO'd Shavers in one round. And Foreman said he ducked both of them, along with Tony Tucker, Bowe, Tyson and Axel Schulz. Tommy Morrison wasn't known for being a slick backfoot boxer with an iron chin or great gas tank but he schooled old Foreman over 12, Holyfield did significantly better. Foreman was a weak champ in the 90's, got several controversial decisions against lesser opposition and had a farcical reign. Briggs was no barometer of HW greatness and got schooled by "Klitschko era bum" Jameel McCline in Briggs's prime.

"Foreman fought Frazier, Norton and Ali in the span of 2 years. That would be like Fury fighting AJ, Usyk and Wilder in the span of 2 years. Put things in perception man."

It's not really though because by modern standards all of those 70's HW's are small, lighter punchers and two of those fights were over in 2 rounds because Frazier and Norton had relatively poor chins. Fury fought Wilder 3 times in 3 years, twice while semi-fit and inactive/semi-active and Wilder fought 6'8, 270 lbs Fury 3 times in 3 years, once coming off a terrible beating. Usyk may fight AJ twice and Fury in a year, which even by your standards has to be more impressive.
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I don't mean to be offensive, but your train of thought is just very strange and ultra subjective to the point that I fundamentally disagree with your entire approach to the sport. Way too robotic. Its Like you don't even watch fights.

exocet76 · Dec 29, 2021

Kiwi Casual said: ↑

I thought it was top ten opponents, not fights. There's a difference you know.
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It doesn't work for Wilder though as there nearly all bums.

It's Ovah · Dec 29, 2021

NEETzschean said: ↑

Wins:

1. 39 Ortiz, home, bodyguard doctor, TKO10 war

2. 40.5 Ortiz, home, KO7 (no attempt to win rounds)

3. 36 Stiverne, home, 11-1 schooling

4. 34.5 Duhaupas, home, TKO11

5. 27 Szpilka, short notice, home, KO9

6. 33.5 Breazeale, neutral, KO1

7. 35 Washington, short notice, neutral, TKO5

Draw:

1. 30 Fury, semi-fit, semi-active, home, war (controversial result)

Losses:

1. 31.5 Fury, home, TKO7 domination

2. 33 Fury, semi-fit, 20 months inactive, home, KO11 war

Wilder was a 30/70 underdog in one fight (Fury 3) and close to even odds in three (Stiverne 1, Fury 1, Fury 2). Wilder had home advantage in 8/10 and was the A-side in all of his pro fights save Fury 3. 2/10 of Wilder’s opponents were 39+. 2/10 of Wilder’s opponents were semi-fit, although Wilder was also 20 months inactive for Fury 3. 2/10 of Wilder’s opponents were late substitutes. 6/10 of Wilder’s opponents were 6’5+. 4/10 of Wilder’s opponents were slick movers. 6/10 of Wilder’s opponents were southpaws or switch hitters. Wilder wasn’t able to beat Fury in three attempts and was stopped twice but no one has come closer than Wilder’s near-KO draw. 4/10 of Wilder’s opponents were ex/current world champions, all reigning (Fury x3, Stiverne).

The main difference between Wilder and AJ’s top 10 opponents is that AJ arguably has a better win (41 Wlad, 17 months inactive, life and death war, questionable late stoppage) but a considerably worse loss (30 Ruiz, short notice, dropped 4 times and quit in 7).
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Objectively hilarious.

Wizbit1013 · Dec 29, 2021

I'll give NEET credit

He creates discussion but my word, he flip flops all over the place and has very little consistency

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An unbiased look at Wilder’s top 10 opponents

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