And Now Al Bernstein's Top 10 P4P List...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boxed Ears, May 16, 2012.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    My problem with this attitude is that the fighters themselves have a given problem: how to win. They approach this problem in great detail. They even take into account which judges are scoring the fight, how much aggression is scored, who likes the jab, who hates holding etc. They design a fight plan which takes into account the referee, whether or not the fight is televised, as well as the 101 things they have to take into account concerning the opponent.

    Then, you come along.

    You're your own judge. You have your own criteria. But the fighters in question are boxing specifically to the criteria at hand which will decide who wins the pro fight they are taking part in. It has nothing to do with you, at all. There are only three people (plus tv) that those fighters have to try to impress. In general, if they succeed in doing so, that should be left alone.

    You have a case here for Trinidad-Oscar, however. I think of that as a robbery, really, I don't understand what happened. BUT. I was very disturbed to learn, after, like everyone else, writing off Valuev's win over Holyfield as a robbery, that 49/52 ringside reporters had scored for Valuev, including Ring Magazine. It looked different on TV than it did to the judges. That was disturbing because hours and hours before anyone who was in the stadium could write up the fight in print, it was all over the internet that it was a robbery.

    This is worth keeping in mind, I think. It is also worth keeping in mind that ALL televised cards for that Oscar-Trinidad were very close, the judges and Lederman's. AP did score it for Trinidad - by a single round. A one round swing and they are in agreement with Lederman and Judge Hamada. Draw.

    How close are you to certain that this fight didn't look different on tv than it did to the ringside judges, the broadcast team and the AP?

    They all disagree with you and think it was very close.

    Regardless, if the defining win you claim for a given fighter is a loss, in my opinion there is something of a problem!



    I might. I think that would probably be true. But this is the type of hair's breadth that we are talking about - because Hopkins beat a guy who was best two weight classes below, it is reasonable to see him ranked as one of the best in history (which a top six MW would naturally be) but Lopez is grossly overated? That's a reach IMO.

    Like I said, there isn't that much difference between the comp that had Hopkins ranked one of the best in history and that should peg Lopez...there shouldn't be much difference in how Hopkins was ranked in 2005 and how two-weight world champion Ricard Lopez was ranked upon his retirement. Hopkins carried with him four losses by the end of his MW campaign, too. Lopez, never beaten, has an extra weight class, has more title fights (2005).

    Of course, Hopkins has added some distance since.

    It's not about a direct comparison of "value" weight class. It's about a direct comparison of competition. IF we agree that Lopez has more longevity and dominance than circa 2005 Hopkins and IF we agree that Hopkins can REASONABLY be ranked very highly based upon his dominance alone when a top 6 ranking at MW makes him one of the greatest in history, it is pretty obvious that Lopez has to be in that neighbourhood. It has nothing to do with the relative weightclasses.



    I wasn't talking about their rankings relative to one another - i'm talking about criteria. If someone ranks Hagler very high (one-weight champion, exceptionally dominant) they will probably have Lopez very high too, as in, both will be at the higher end of their own personal spectrum.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2012
    McGrain, May 20, 2012
    #106
  2. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    I see what you're saying.

    Just to confirm, if I see a fight that could go either way I give weight to the official ruling. But I've seen too many bad calls. I go with what I see with the ebb and flow. When I'm ranking a fighter, it's more what they show in fights rather than official decisions. Therefore, Arguello pushed JLR close, and gets credit for it, but he lost clearly IMO, bang in his prime, and I hold that against him. Tommy Hearns looked deadly against Barkley first time and showed how class his offence was, but he was sparked. Similarly Hearns beat a still very good Leonard second time round IMO, and I give him credit for it, even if it was ruled a draw.

    Obviously I know less about some fighters than I do others. My rankings do change as I learn more and more admittedy.

    Nice point about ringside and TV and from first hand experience I know it's a very valid point. Literally from where I was sitting in the arena, Froch bossed Dirrell. But when I got home and watched it on TV, I did not think Froch won at all.
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #107
  3. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    You know what I'm getting at and my reasoning anyway, if you think I'm acting on bias or a dislike for any particular fighter, well, I'd only be wasting my own time if I did that.
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #108
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Sometimes, I find, a given opinion can take on a certain amount of weight in my mind and that generates its own gravity. Sometimes when I read what you write about Lopez, I think something like this may have happened to you.
     
    McGrain, May 20, 2012
    McGrain, May 20, 2012
    #109
  5. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Nah, I just go with my opinion. I back it up, or at least I think I do anyway. I come to my own conclusions, and to be honest I have asked myself before 'am I the worst kind of troll on ESB...one who doesn't realise he is one?' But I'm not a spastic, so I don't think that's the case.

    As I've stressed, big Lopez fan here. I don't think it's me against the World either, others have agreed with me in the past. Obviously lots of respected pundits who know more than me do not share my views, but it's the feeling I get when I weigh up all the evidence.

    As you said yourself, boxings not maths, it's music. Lopez's stats just don't sound that great to my ears.

    Either I'm a mentalist or I'm being reasonable. I don't try to be 'out there' at all, so it's not that either I can assure you.

    I'm obviously a facist.
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #110
  6. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    enjoy the debate guys, keep it up
     
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    #111
  7. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    I'm lovin' it too, for me and Mr. McGrain it's a good way to spend a Sunday afternoon (I speak for myself, but he's here ain't he?)

    He seems a lot more organised than me though ;-)
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #112
  8. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Just wanted to clarify; are you saying that Lopez going up to fight the guys he didn't fight ( Gonzales, Carabajal, etc.) Is less than a middleweight going up to light heavy or that Lopez moving up to bantam would have been the same? Because I agree with the former but the latter is crazy.
     
    LittleRed, May 20, 2012
    LittleRed, May 20, 2012
    #113
  9. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    meh, you're holding your own :thumbsup either way, lopez may be the best example of a great fighter having no great wins. how do you rank someone without a standout name on their ledger?

    similar issue was faced by to some degree by pedroza before and wlad now.

    here's some food for thought...lopez's destruction of Sorjaturong just two years before he beat gonzalez

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuymSM64vEA[/ame]

    this may be my favourite lopez win
     
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    #114
  10. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    It's my favourite, love Sorjatarung as well.

    I thought Lopez looked incredible demolishing Ohashi as well.
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #115
  11. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    :thinkcan't recall, have to check that out
     
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    #116
  12. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqRcfQoelC0[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3N5nPIE4rQ[/ame]

    Courtesy of the main man McGrain :good

    Seriously, there is a wealth of Lopez on youtube, no need to splash out on DVDs.
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #117
  13. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    Nightcrawler, May 20, 2012
    #118
  14. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Plenty of them on there as well :good

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwl9ZW5PyGQ&feature=related[/ame]

    Lopez treating a lower level opponent with utter contempt. Absolutely brutal and, as always, very efficient. This guy was a big Korean lump (for midgets anyway) and he got savaged.
     
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    Flea Man, May 20, 2012
    #119
  15. jbels08

    jbels08 Member Full Member

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    Sep 17, 2011
    To me it's hard to put Greb and Langford on P4P lists, due to most of their fights being first hand accounts and little to no film on them fighting. So judging their styles would be difficult for the modern day boxing fan, I feel safer putting guys who there's definitive film on so I can defend my choice and not go by first hand accounts (which can be unreliable)
     
    jbels08, May 20, 2012
    jbels08, May 20, 2012
    #120
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