Andre Ward at SMW.

That's true.

He'd have to be in the top 10, possibly in the top 5.

 

I think 14 is really low.

I guess it depends on your criteria. But I couldn't name 13 better SMW's. He'd have to be in the top 5 or higher.

 

If you think he isn't in the top 5, well I could use a good laugh, so post those you rank ahead of him.

 

Listen Ras Al-Ghul... I appreciate you. I don't disagree with you all the time. Even with some of your extremes it brings rightful balance to a conversation. But sometimes you say some truly, truly space-cadet kinda ****!

EDIT: Hey, thanks for taking me up on my challenge. Another reason I ride with the purists/old school thinkers over these hipsters. The purists and the old school thinkers respond.

 

Bute was NOT the best. Froch proved that.

 

I love debating with you.

You have great in-depth knowledge of the division.

It's great that we all share different opinions. But with the greatest respect to you, I couldn't disagree more with what you've written.

I think it's silly.

You can't just look at the numbers. You simply have to account for ability as well.

Roy only had about 6 fights at the weight, but he's high on your list just like he is on mine. So you must have rated Roy that high on his ability, as well as for his wins over Toney and Malinga. You must have done that, as opposed to just looking at his number of title defences etc.

Andre might not have a string of title defences and mandatories etc, but he's obviously one of the greatest SMW's of all time. He his simply a better fighter than Thulani Malinga. Also, in my honest opinion, he has better wins. Andre easily beat Carl Froch, despite having a double fracture of his hand. He also beat Kessler. Those wins are better than Malinga's wins over Reid and Benn. Benn was faded at that point. He was never the same after the McClellan fight. Which is why I don't give Steve Collins much credit for beating him.

What difference does it make if Froch wasn't a top 20 P4P fighter? Neither were Reid or Benn.

I would rank Andre ahead of Markus Beyer, on the grounds that I think he was just a better fighter.

I would rank Roy Jones higher than Sven Ottke, despite the fact that Roy only spent 2 years in the division. Roy was just on another level. Again, I respect what you've written, but when I compile a list, I simply have to take into account their H2H ability, even though it's highly subjective. Otherwise, you're going to end up eventually putting a guy like George Groves ahead of Roy and Andre, based on title defences etc. (if he went on to make a number of them)

Where you've mentioned Holmes, are you referring to Lindell Holmes? If so, how on earth can he rank ahead of Andre? How many fights did he have at SMW? Who did he beat?

Park? Mitchell?

 

Again, how is Malinga a better SMW?

How is Rochigianni?

Holmes had 2 fights with Park, (who I know nothing about) he beat Malinga, and then he lost to Van Horn (who I also know nothing about) and Eubank. And that was after he'd won a vacant title.

Personally, I wouldn't rate Collins over Andre either. His claim to fame at SMW, were close wins over a faded Eubank, and 2 wins over a shot Benn. And the only reason he fought them twice each, is because the first Eubank fight was close, and Benn got injured. So although it may look good on paper, it's not when you analyse them.

Why is Beyer ranked above Andre?

Can you educate me on Park. Why does he rank above Andre?

 

I can see why Ra has those boxers above Ward when speaking about SMW only. Those guys have better resumes than Ward. If Ward fought all of those guys one after the other like a lot of them was doing back in those days he'll have a few close defeats to his name, imo.

 

Chong Pal Park defeated Murray Sutherland in July 1984 to become the second IBF Super Middleweight Champion and only the second World Champion in the division's history. He defended the belt for almost four years before he vacated the title.

During his IBF reign he made 8 successful defences, defeating Roy Gumbs, Vinnie Curto in two consecutive defences, Marvin Mack, Doug Sam, Lindell Holmes and Emanuel Otti. He also had an NC with Holmes when he was cut by an accidental headbutt.

He became the inaugural WBA Super Middleweight Champion in December 1987 when he defeated Jesus Gallardo but would only make one successful defence of the belt against Polly Pasireron before being defeated by Fulgencio Obelmejias.

 

What the heck did Calzaghe do that people rank him so highly? Beat decades past peak Jones or Hopkins?

Peter Manfredo?

Sakio Bika?

Kessler?

Jeff Lacy?

 

putting much weight on accomplishments of the earliest smw champions is like saying john sullivan was as accomplished as joe louis.

but i agree he figures somewhere and appreciate the lesson.

 

I'd like to apologise to you for some of the things I've said over the past few days.

I got a bit carried away because you frustrated me.


Regarding this thread, I have to rank fighters based on their abilities and their resumes. I also have to look at the manner of their victories and if there's any circumstances that may have to be taken into account.

If you want to, we can have a debate. I'll be civil.

If you think that Ra's right, then I respect that. But personally, I don't think that all of those guys he's listed have got better resumes, and that's even if we just concentrate on Andre's SMW fights.

Andre's most notable SMW wins are:

Miranda
Kessler
Abraham
Green
Froch
Dawson
Rodriguez

So let's start with a guy like Lindell Holmes.

His resume consists of:

Park (loss)
Stackhouse
Tate
Byrd
Malinga
Van Horn (loss)
Eubank (loss)

Stackhouse and Byrd were lower level fighters.

He lost to Van Horn, Park and Eubank.

Maybe he should have won against Park. I've no idea. I've never seen the fight. I'd have to ask someone who saw it. But after viewing the above, how can he possess a better resume than Andre? In my opinion, he can't. It seems ridiculous to me.

If you want to, we can also look at some of the others.

How can Malinga, Beyer and Park rank above him?

Were they better fighters?

Do they hold better resumes?

 

Thanks a lot.

I really appreciate the information.


Basically, what I want to know, is:

Was he a good fighter?

Were they good fighters who he beat?

Was he better than Andre?

Does he have a better resume?

 

I don't have any of those fighters above Ward, I think Ward beats them all. I think Malinga would be very close bouts though as he clearly is a better boxer than past it Kessler and Carl Froch. Like if Malinga vs Ward happened 3 times I can see Malinga winning at least one of those fights.

 

Okay, but I thought you said that you agreed with where Ra has placed those other fighters above Andre? That's what you typed.

Regarding Malinga, he was a good fighter. But I don't think he was as good as Froch, and Andre was on another level to him. I don't see how he'd have beaten Andre.