Andre Ward at SMW.

I said I can see why Ra, would think that way about those boxers, and their resumes. I never agreed with him. My picks are clearly on the first page.

 

No worries.

Without being argumentative, why can you see why Ra would pick those guys?

That implies that you agree with him.

If you don't, then question them. That's the point of the debate.

 

I don't agree with him, its just his point of view. I'm not his therapist so have no idea what is going through his head. If Ward fought Lindell Holmes resume you just posted, Ward is losing to one of those people, as I mentioned about Malinga before, Eubank would out-think Ward in my opinion and beat him on the cards. He's got a chance of knocking him down along the way.That's what Ra, was trying to put across. Ward's resume to some of those people is a bit crap, in all honestly, because his his two tops wins at SMW are Carl Froch and past prime Kessler, who imo loses to all of the guys who Ra, mentioned.

 

I don't see why you think Malinga would have beaten Andre.

Eubank at his best would have given any SMW a tough fight.

Andre's resume isn't a bit crap.

It's superior to Lindell Holmes' who's biggest win was Malinga, but who lost to Eubank and Van Horn etc.

It's laughable to put Holmes's resume ahead of Andre's.

Then there's Beyer's etc.

If you think Andre's resume is crap, then what does that make Collins' resume?

Froch and Kessler would have lost to all of the guys that Ra has mentioned?

 

Collins was at SMW less time than Ward, and his two top wins trump Ward's imo.
Nigel Benn > Froch
Past prime Eubank > Past prime Kessler.

 

How do they?

Andre easily beat Froch with a broken hand, who then went on to destroy Bute.

Collins beat a shot Benn, who should never have come out of retirement after losing to Malinga.

He fought Collins and twisted his ankle, which is the only reason they had a rematch. It look good on paper having 2 wins over Benn, but not when you put them under the microscope.

The version of Froch who Andre fought, was better than the version of Benn who Collins fought.

I wouldn't say that Eubank was any better than the version of Kessler who Andre fought, and Andre won comfortably, whilst Collins had a close fight.

Then there's Dawson, (fair enough he was drained) Bika and Abraham etc, whereas Collins had Cummings and Seillier etc. There's no justification to rank him above Andre.

 

I think Nigel Benn is a much better name than Carl Froch, who has had been pretty damn lucky with some of the names on his resume. And as if Nigel Benn is not ****ing up Bute, Groves X2, losing on the cards to the slickster Americans like JT and AD.
The Eubank who faced Collins would have no trouble for past prime Kessler, imo. He'd give prime Kessler a damn good fight.
As for Collins himself, in his absolute prime. I think he beats the best version of Andre Ward at 168lbs by out working him, and roughing him up in a full Irish fight, instead of a 50% Irish one.
That's why I have Collins above Ward in my list. The two top names, plus H2H.

 

1. Joe was past peak himself when he beat Jones and Hopkins

2. He has also wins vs other great fighters like Reed, Eubank and Brewer

3. His longevity he was the SMW champ for more that 10 years

4. unified the belts at 168 (I know the IBF stipped him because he ducked Stieglitz)

 

he had longevity for sure but doesnt that kind of counteract what you claim about him vs jones and hopkins. I'd say he was a little past prime vs them. Hopkins was clearly short of being elite, jones was shot as joe calzaghe himself tells you, wonder why you arent listening to the very man you are defending.

also, joe was a minor title holder till 2005, so he was a recognised smw champ for 2005-2007, 2 years max, and unified for a few months. Its fine to claim he was minor title holder for another 8 years ontop of that though, thats ok.

 

at least when Joe beat Brewer (2002) and Mitchell (2003) he was clearly recognized as the number 1 at 168 so that makes 4 or 5 years he also was unified for about 1,5 years

 

We're not looking at the name value.

We're looking at the specific version of Benn who fought Collins.

Collins didn't beat the versions of Benn who'd fought Eubank and Gerald etc. He fought the version who'd come out of retirement who had nothing left to give. Benn even admitted that he was "kinda gone" against Collins. The fight against Gerald took so much out of him. I don't think that version of Benn would have been favoured over the likes of Bute. Benn gave up in the rematch with Collins.

How can you be so confident in thinking that Eubank would have beaten Kessler? He was faded then, and his performances were hit and miss.

I respect your opinion regarding Collins, but I don't think he was a great SMW. He struggled with a faded Eubank, and I think he was better at MW. I'd have fancied Andre over him for sure. If you want to put him above Andre on a H2H basis, I've no problem with that, even though I don't agree. But again, I don't think you can justify Collins being above him based on his resume. His resume at SMW is weak, based off of 2 fighters. Again, he only rematched Eubank because the first fight was so close, and he only rematched Benn because of his injury. The x2 that are next to their names may look good on paper, but it's not in reality.

 

no brewer was past it and mitchell was looking for a retirement pay cheque, so as to quit right after.

still brewer is one of joes best wins for sure.
Hard to give the accolade to joe vs mitchell due to the horrible cardiff stoppage on a slip. That was the first time joe looked powerless to hurt someone and in danger of getting koed, so its obvious why joe turned to the ref to ask for a fake stoppage fast.

 

In terms of resume I think Calzaghe is ahead due to how long he defended his title and that when he stepped up he looked terrific even so he was older.

Hoever in a head to head I don't think anyone aside from RJJ wins over Ward at SMW. Like he isn't talanted but his will to win and being willing to do whatever it takes to win is what seperates him and the others.

 

Ward wouldn't beat prime Calzaghe who might even give prime Jones Jr a close fight

 

You have to look at accomplishments and who they fought etc. Wins and losses...

Calzaghe, Ottke, Eubank undeniably have far greater resumes but I dont think it stops there and also feel Collins, Jones, Benn have done far more. It could be argued that Kessler and Froch have greater SMW resumes but even though I feel both were faded when Ward fought them, he does hold a victory over each.
I think it could be argued that Liles did more at SMW with wins over Sellier, Nunn, Littles, Ballogou, Amaral.
Mitchell could have a dispute to some degree with a win over Liles, 2 victories over future SMW champ Siaca, and having disputed decisions to Ottke and Girard.
A fighter like Beyer who was a 3 time SMW champ could bring in some dispute also.
Malinga beat Benn and Reid so there could be dispute but also had losses
Chong-Pal Park had a good SMW run that doesnt get mentioned on ESB, but I do tend to find that many on here dont actually know the division and think it began with J Lacy when it had been a tough division for years.


still as said you have to look at the whole thing and who they fought so

1 . Calzaghe
2 . Eubank
3 . Ottke
4 . Collins
5 . Benn
6 . Jones
7 .
8 .
9 .
10.

I could make a good argument for Ward to be top 10, but could also make good arguments for other SMWs to be in the top 10 before him including Liles, Beyer, Park, Malinga, Holmes, Kessler, Froch to name a few, so would guess that he may be just outside of the top 10 but still have done well.