Angelo Dundee: Did he make the fighters or vice versa?

Dundee was a fine trainer and man. Anyone who can deal with the ego's of Ali and Leonard and make them better fighters, was an excellent trainer IMO.

 

Well, there is the old stories of Dundee slicing open Ali's glove after he got dropped hard by Cooper to buy him some more recovery time.Also, when Ali came back to his corner after the 4th round of the first Liston fight and Ali had some caustic substance in his eyes, Muhammad was reported to have said "cut the gloves off and let the world see there is foul play going on here".The story is that Dundee talked Ali out of quitting, and history changed course forever.Then , years later Leonard asked Ali about who should handle him when he turns pro and Ali suggested Dundee because "he has the complexion and the connections".
I would say, yes, Dundee did have a positive influence on both Ali and Leonards careers.

 

It's always been my understanding that Ali's physique had it's childhood roots in Fred Stoner's physical conditioning and training regimen, but that's not to discount other contributions.

Dundee did make him continue in the first match with Liston, when he was blinded and wanted to quit. 16 years later, Dundee also stopped the match against Larry Holmes when Ali wanted to continue.

Angie also taught Ali how to shorten up his left hook, a punch he slapped with, or threw in more roundhouse fashion as an amateur. Ali's hook became a dangerous weapon, one responsible for sending down Bonavena as if Ringo had been shot. In Manila, Ali repeatedly spun Frazier's head with that hook, as Joe slowly tailed Ali into the corners during that grueling war.

I don't think Angie would have done the sort of job with Emile Griffith that Gil Clancy did in developing Griff into an ATG, nor do I think he was a strategist on the same level as Eddie Futch, but he was a very good man to have in the corner during a match, and ran a very tight ship in training camp. When he arrived, he was unquestionably in charge. In sharp contrast to the Petronelli's apathetically calm behavior during the SRL/Hagler match (which Clancy candidly criticized in no uncertain terms), Dundee kept a tiring SRL pumped up and inspired between rounds. (He certainly didn't need to take a backseat to Bundini in that department!)

He proved perfectly competent with non legendary boxers like Jimmy Ellis, Quick Tillis, and David Love (although Angelo made an unusual error in judgement when he let Love out for the ninth round against Curtis Parker).

Finally, he understood his role as George Foreman's employer when George regained the title, and performed the job George needed him to. (Against Moorer: "George, are you all right?" Foreman: "I'm all right!" At that stage of Dundee's career, if Foreman had not been all right, Angie would have known when to stop the match to protect George, if Foreman's own judgement had been impaired to a degree where he wasn't able to make that decision on his own. That's what a good second does.)

I consider Dundee a solid second tier trainer, worthy of ATG and HOF status.

 

the thing is if the ali's and leanords worked out their own strategies and were gifted enough not to need too much coaching then it takes a good trainer to leave well alone and recognize that, instead of trying to impose himself which might make them less effective.ray arcel one of the great old trainers said basically he couldn't teach duran a thing and that the ring was duran's office and he was the master in there.there's no doubt though that within fights dundee's powers of motivation could have a real effect.a couple of the posters above have mentioned his work on ali and foreman but the best piece of work i seen him perform was with willie pastrano in the sixties in london defending the light heavyweight title against ex middleweight champ terry downes.after 10 or 11 rounds downes had been all over pastrano and was winning handilly.then i think it was between the 10th and 11th dundee let rip with the biggest foul mouthed tirade against pastrano i think to this day i've ever heard.it was being shown on the bbc and all and sundry could hear it.pastrano came out like a man possesed got down to work and stopped downes in the very next round.i'm not knowledgable enough to know if technically dundee was up to the futch's and arcel's of the world but i believe he was a mighty fine trainer and man.

 

IM abit ambivalent towards Dundee,part of me commends him stopping the fight against Holmes and part of me thinks he should have walked away as Pacheco did when Ali was clearly past it and risking long term damage to his health, a good trainer and excellent motivator ,Illgive him the benefit of the doubt and say he got caught up on the rollercoaster that was the Ali circus and stayed on a stop too many.

 

This pretty well says it for me as well. Do we know for sure that Ali would have continued, if Dundee and Bundini (especially the devoutly loyal Bundini) had walked away? Or were they afraid he'd get himself killed without them? (Dundee previously worked against Ali with Jimmy Ellis, so it wouldn't have been the first time Ali had proceeded without Angelo. Gil Clancy was Ali's trainer and chief second for Sonny Banks, so there was further precedent for Ali boxing without Dundee in his corner.)

 

Dundee was the right man for Ali and Leonard he is one of the great trainers for it takes a great man to train these men.

 

And to debunk an old myth.


I have just finished watching an ESPN classic Cooper/Clay(Ali)I

Harry Carpenter commentary between rounds 4 and 5 went:

"There seems to be a delay, the ref is talking to the timekeeper, there is something worng with Clay's glove. No wait they are starting"

Afterwards Carpenter clarified:

"We timed the break between rounds 4 and 5 and it was 65 seconds; Dundee did rip the already torn glove; so Ali did have an extra break. But the glove was not replaced"

 

He got to them mentally. He maybe did a tweak here or there but I believe he taught very basic boxing. Technically and skillfully he simply wasn't good.

When it came to saying what needs to be said, when it needs to be said AND doing what needs to be done, when it needs to be done he is undoubtedly the man.

Leonard even says Dundees famous words are invaluable and really helped him. Words like 'your blowing it' and 'NINE MINUTES'.

 

Dundee s motivation was certainly better than the Petronellis in the Hagler v Leonard fight.

 

achilles when you say "technically and skillfully he simply wasn't good" what do you base that on? i've always found it difficult for us as boxing fans to know what a trainer really contributes behind the scenes because most of the work is done behind closed doors.i think a lot of assumptions are made regarding trainers but do us as fans really know?

 

I disagree with Dundee being a good trainer.I think he more of a great motivator then a trainer.
What boxer did he develope and take to the title?

Leonard/Ali already had the great natural skills.

 

He is a good finished fighters trainer, he makes a fighter fight behind his strength and plays the mind games

 

I fought for him as an amateur in Florida -- a terrific motivator -- made every kid feel special -- even with all the great pros at the 5th St. Gym at that time.

Didn't tinker with styles but demonstrated little tips that worked and made you better. Seeing the results in sparring was a huge incentive.

Like Freddy Roach, you felt you could trust Angelo. In a sea of guys carrying towels and screaming, calling themselves trainers, his low-key input was the real deal.