Another Lennox Lewis point of debate...

Obviously it's all relative. He still had the stamina to go 10 rounds, as proven.

Mercer was huffing and puffing by the 5th round or earlier, his pace could have been quicker, he slowed down at times, he could have been fitter. Being lighter would have helped, IMO.

 

I didn't bring up the Mavrovic and Tucker fights to seal Lewis' legacy.

I brought them up because you were talking about a pattern of struggles for Lewis against iron chinned fighters.

Well let's: he faced Tua, Tucker, Mavrovic, Holyfield 2x, Mercer and Klitschko, McCall 2x.

His record against those? 7-1. And that is objectively looking at it.
You could say that he was a bit lucky in the Klitschko fight (though the cuts did come from his punches) and the Mercer fight was a close one.

So, that's 7-1 with 2 close fights.

You could argue Gary Mason had an iron chin as well (making it 8-1), but considering he's a bit unproven and i've never seen other fights of him outside of clips, we'll leave him out.

If you don't rank him in the top3 then that's fine. It is very subjective after all. Like i said before, i brought up Mavrovic because he had an iron chin and you were talking about his record vs iron chinned fighters.

Wow, he must have been really lucky to have bested every man he faced with his low punch output, lazy jab, clumsy footwork and reliance on single shots.


He averaged 56 punches a round against Holyfield. Tell me how that is a low output? Which fighters throughout his career took advantage of his supposed low punchout by outworking him? None.

I think the lazy jab thing is a bit over-stated. I think it's a result of the second Holyfield fight, where he fought Holyfield's fight. Same in the Mercer fight; it's not like he was lazy with the jab, he simply opted not to jab, but to fight. When he choose to jab, say, the Tua or first Holyfield fight, he threw a ton and with authority. Lewis changed styles a lot throughout various fights, which is why he was never consistently beaten: he's very adaptable. In the Morrison fight, he worked his jab as well as combinations, left hooks etc. If anything, i think it's a feather in his cap.

As for relying on single shots, i don't really see that either. What fights are you basing this on? Early in his career he did a bit, but then it's hard to throw a combination when Ruddock goes down from the first right hand that lands. Morrison, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield (esp. the first fight), Tyson, etc all ate combinations. The only exception i can think of is the Bruno fight and the Tua fight.

If that was true, then why didn't any of Briggs, Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Mercer, Golota, Ruddock, Tucker and Mason knock him down or out? They were certainly better than McCall and Rahman, both as punchers and as fighters.

What do you mean? The same Norton who always froze against punchers? The same Norton who went 2-2-1 after that fight, with two first-round knockouts, a close win over Cobb despite being down, a draw with Ledoux (!) and a win over a nobody? Surely, had that been someone better than Norton (or even a prime Norton), Holmes would've lost?!

Norton was 35 years old and Holmes at his peak, but Holmes won by only 1 or 2 rounds. Come to think of it, Holmes also struggled with Witherspoon and Weaver, the two best fighters after Norton he faced. Am i onto a pattern here?


I actually think not (and i rank Holmes in my top5), but i'm trying to point out how that reasoning need not be valid.

Who did Tyson beat to prove that he's capable of beating an all time great fighter? Ruddock by decision, who Lewis took out in 2?
Who did Liston beat that shows he can deal with a Lewis, Holmes, Louis or Ali? A chinless 180lbs heavyweight who got knocked down by 0-0 Rademacher? You can make this argument for just about any fighter not named Ali or Frazier.

I don't think he did his best to stay away at all. He fought completely different than in the Tua fight, where he did try to stay away. He did stay away for some rounds (most of the rounds he won i think), but during the first five, it was close combat and it's not like he was holding on or escaping whenever Mercer came close.

Also, how many fighters from the top10 have the ability to take those shots and keep coming? Mercer had an incredibly strong chin.

If you take your average top10, in no order, which have the durability that Mercer has?

Ali: Let's call it even; Ali fought more punchers but was also a lot better at defense (even in the 70's), pretending not to be hurt, held on, etc)
Louis: No
Lewis: No
Marciano: No
Holmes: No
Frazier: No
Liston: No
Dempsey: No
Foreman: No
Holyfield: Yes (not counting the steroid/disease thing that stopped him against Bowe)
Tyson: No
Johnson: No
Jeffries: ND (never proved it against big punchers)
Patterson: No
Charles: No

So that's a grand total of 1 out of the entire top15, with another one even and one undecided. And Ali is not going to come in or fight aggressive, so it's not really that relevant.

Maybe so, but he still beat all those fighters and lost only one time to McCall. And as i've shown above, those fighters bring more "chin" to the table than 13 out of the top15 heavyweights, so who is to say they're still going to be on their feet if they try to walk Lewis down?
Let's not forget that Golota's night ended in one round that way, Ruddock ended after two and Grant after two (a miracle he even got that far).

Not many fighters can take the punches that Lewis throws. Lewis fought a lot of iron-chinned fighters and didn't always go for the kill, which is why his KO percentage is only "normally" high.

 

Coming from you i'll take that as a compliment.

If you can't believe that, then just watch some Mercer fights and how he seems to be impervious to head punches.


Also i think your claims are a bit dubious. Frazier was one or two years away from being knocked down by Bonavena, was staggered at his peak by Quarry, and dropped six times by Foreman two years later. Liston went down from a 180lbs journeyman, by Ali (i don't think the KO was legit, but i think the knockdown was) and knocked out cold by Martin. Louis was dropped by Baer, Braddock, Galento and others at his peak.

Mercer stood up to a myriad of hard punches from some of the better punchers in history (and they were over 210 pounds unlike most of Liston and the champs before him's opponents) and was only down once from a body shot and once more when he was way past his best against a top gun offensively.

Yep, Tyson would be hard to get past for anyone.

 

You fail to mention that Lewis was the first man to ever put Tucker down in a professional ring, twice. He was the only man to ever stop Oliver McCall (mental breakdown, but a stoppage nonetheless).
He had David Tua's respect, David was not as offensive as he hauled to be, after eating Lennox jab, right hand cross.
He stopped Razor Ruddock in extreme fashion, he didn't stop Mercer.. but who did back then? I doubt anyone would've stopped Mercer in '96.
Mavrovic was a walking mummie, god knows what kept this guy up..

So, your examples are pretty poor, Lewis was that big of a puncher.. he really was. :thumbsup

 

Every time this thread gets bumped and I see the title, I briefly think it says, "Annie Lennox" and want to play my old Eurhythmics records.

 

And there's a reason why they don't say that is because that would be completely ****ing insane.

Rahman was in top shape for both fights, and this 'fatso' was 2 pounds lighter for the rematch. When it comes to the reasons Rahman lost the second fight, rest assured, his physical conditioning was definitely not one of them.

 

Damon, I don't think he's coming back at either of us to defend that statement.

 

I remember watching the first Lewis-Rahman fight live on BBC (ironically Lewis's first performance on free TV in the UK for almost 10 years), and the two guys doing the commentary (one was Marvin Hagler, the other a BBC guy - forget his name) remarked how HASIM RAHMAN looked in softer shape than Lennox Lewis (Lewis's weight and condition was a talking point), and I thought they were right.

In the rematch, Rahman looked a lot leaner (but only 2 pounds lighter - steroids perhaps?).

Rahman was actually a bit flabby when he won - and less so when he lost the title.

I remember Hagler blaming old George Foreman's success for influencing the heavyweights to become these fat, slow oafs looking for the one big punch. Lewis and Rahman were both a sorry sight in South Africa really. But I think Rahman had actually trained well for that one, whereas Lewis's slackness was disgraceful, and Emmanuel Steward was obviously a complete waste, a "yes man".

 

LOL

Let's give it a try:

Sweet dreams are made of these, who am I to disagree?

Okay, I'll stop there and resume my day job.

 

i watched lewis/mercer last nite I DONT CARE IF LARRY HOLMES WAS ONLY 212 LBS IN HIS PRIME.................HW WOULDA BEAT PRIME LEWIS....HOLY FUK MAN.....1996 VERSION OF LEWIS VS A 1986/87/88 VERSION OF TYSON HE WOULDA GOT KNOCKED OUTTTTTT

 

I'm, quite frankly done debating one Lennox Lewis. He is a top 10 ATG HW in the #10 slot at the moment. The guy really did a great job as HW champ, regardless of avenged starchings.

Regarding the guys that don't like him, I've a question - Who's done what he accomplished since? A simple answer is nobody.. and that is something for you Lewis detractors to keep in mind!

 

Mercer went down against Holyfield in 1995, badly hurt by one or perhaps two left hooks to the head. Mercer seemed to go down "voluntary" ie. he took to his knee to buy some time, but he must have been badly shaken up to do so.

 

I just rewatched the fight, and you are right. For some reason i remembered it to be body shots.

That was a beauty of a left hook, by the way. It came out of no where and was picture perfect. Definitely Holyfield's best punch. Mercer seemed to be out on his feet although he did have the sense to take a knee. It's actually interesting how he arguably lost both fights with Holyfield and Lewis because he got tired. He had a 50% connect ratio against Holyfield, including the jab. He actually outlanded Holyfield by 245 to 200 landed punches. I'd have to rewatch the Lewis fight to see those numbers.

 

Yes, Holyfield has one of the best left hooks of all-time, IMO. He's rarely credited enough for that.
Even last year at 44 years of age he pulled out a vintage left hook against fellow veteran Lou Savarese, a beautiful shot.

Mercer fought well against Holyfield and Lewis, both fight were close. Mercer had defonitely got himself in shape mentally, though I think his bulk against Lewis may have slowed him down a bit and cost him the fight. In 1996 Mercer had a good year, finishing with a close win over a rejuvenated Tim Witherspoon, I thought that was arguably enough to have him ranked above Lewis at the time. I never understood what happened to his career after that, I guess he was avoided by the top guys who realised he wasn't just an "opponent" any more, he was unpredictable. Left alone until he was way past his sell-by date.