Anthony Joshua vs Muhammad Ali who wins this super fight?

i did say my example was more to do with weight and size disparity rather than "exceptional skills"

 

Seems to me you don't want to believe. You can always rationalize against a point that goes against your opinion. You asked for an example when a huge size discrepancy was overcome by skill and I gave you one. Then you say the bigger boxer was unskilled. Isn't that the very comparison you were first asking for? lol

 

This works, 1 for team Ali.

 

So when do we add resume, times under fire, chin, heart, and intestinal fortitude because we don't have any evidence of that in Joshua that tells anyone that he can beat Ali. None, zippo...

 

Well, I'm not sure if there's a huge gap between the skill difference of Chagaev/Haye and Valuev and Ali and Joshua that we've seen so far. Not to mention, size difference for Ali/Joshua is much smaller than It was with Valuev and Chagaev/Haye.

 

I do want to believe that Ali beats Joshua. I opened the thread believing such.

I just want examples to convince me over the arguments for AJ put forth.

Does the Ali side have him over established super-heavies H2H like Lewis, Bowe and Klitschkos?

 

Williard v Dempsey

 

I will have to disagree with you here. Although Joshua is untested, the eye test alone shows more of a skill gap between Valuev/Haye than he and Ali. Valuev can barely move, come on.

 

I am no expert but isn't Willard a bit of a Valuev for his time, big and not much else.

 

This comparison shouldn't even be made because Joshua is not even a champion yet. He's a titlist. He has not accomplished ANYTHING in the sport yet. Nothing.

 

Boxing is ultimately a sport of skill. I personally don't think very much of the skill level of the current super heavyweights. They are big and strong for sure but boxing isn't a toughman contest. After all is said and done, you are going to believe what you want to believe and so will I. Ali is the best heavyweight I have seen and I have followed him since he won the gold medal as a light heavyweight in the Olympics. I wouldn't pick anyone over the Ali prior to his suspension and certainly not the stiffs that are fighting at heavyweight today.

 

Lewis vs Ali is more up for debate, you'll have people here from the "Ali" camp on both sides. But Joshua hasn't proven even a fraction of what Lennox Lewis did.

He might go on to do so, but at this point there's no use comparing him to Ali.

 

Maybe we don't have much in the way of evidence right now and a better conclusion could be drawn after Joshuas career is over. However I don't agree that comparison is totally pointless considering both are pro fighters in the same weight class.

How many of you were comparing Floyd/RJJ/Lomachenko to all time greats H2H long before they were properly established ?

Its a common occurrence on boxing sites among boxing fans.

 

Yes, some people did compare Floyd/RJJ/Lomachenko to past greats early. I also think that was pretty pointless as well haha, although I acknowledge it's quite common. But if it were this early they'd also be widely criticised. Lomachenko has a massive amateur background at least, although I still say we should wait and see regarding him too.

The thing is that Joshua hasn't proved anything in comparison to Ali yet:
- good, but not spectacular amateur
- he's beaten Martin, Molina, Breazeale, and Whyte. None of those are worth anything in comparison to Ali.

So at this point, I can't see how an objective poster can pick Joshua with any confidence, let alone say it's a mismatch in AJ's favour. AJ vs Whyte wasn't a mismatch, and Whyte is not much bigger than Ali (heavier, yes, but far less skilled; and I reckon a lot of the weight just makes him gas rather than being of use). If AJ goes on to prove himself as one of the great superheavies, then we can reconsider. I'm also a bit sceptical of the value of comparing past greats H2H vs current fighters to be honest, and even if we do, we can't make utterly baseless assertions such as Joshua is faster than Ali.

TL/DR:

1. The AJ camp have made a number of utterly absurd statements (bolded above).
2. The whole argument for AJ is basically two parts: a) AJ's level is that of a top HoF/ATG SHW from the eye test, and b) modern HWs would tend to beat older ATGs due to size and power. Both are highly controversial, and there's no point considering them together.

 

Maybe I am underrating Clay/Ali rather than overrating Joshua.

To me Ali is a dog against Vitali, Bowe, Lewis and Wladimir (Steward edition) because all were very well versed boxers with considerable size and weight advantages. Other than mental attributes, Ali does not compare favourably overall.

Would Ali have beat Foreman if that fight was fought anywhere other than the surface of the sun?