Any information on Lem Franklin

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Jun 19, 2018.


  1. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    From what I understand, he was a hard punching heavy in the 1940s but I really don't know much else about him
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Managed by Jack Hurley he had top power but if he didn't get you out early he could fade and be stopped himself..
     
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  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I have stuff on Franklin....stand by
     
  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Ok thanks to mcgrain and surf brat and Great A

    He and Joe Louis had the same amateur trainer (whose name escapes me for the moment). That trainer claimed Lem was the harder puncher. So did Hall of Fame baseball legend Tris Speaker, who was a boxing fan and most likely saw many hard-hitting heavyweights come and go over the decades


    a Joe Louis interview in the run up to the Buddy Baer rematch.

    "I'd fight Lem Franklin with the greatest of pleasure. Roxy and Chappie don't think much of him, but I know he's improved. I keep track of all them fellas. I'm going to see Franklin fight Bob Pastor in Febuary. I've seen him two or three times. I saw him lose a six round decision to Freddie Fiducia in the Garden. He hasn't hit Freddie yet but that was four years ago and Freddie knew to much for him. He's a right-hand puncher who depends on punching and has a brittle right hand. I hope that right hand stays in good repair and he keeps them fellas out untilSeptember. I'll be looking for an appointment around that time."




    Here are some choice articles that are worth a read:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=4578,4762659&dq=pastor+franklin&hl=en

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=3902,825911&dq=pastor+franklin&hl=en

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=1196,896908&dq=pastor+franklin&hl=en



    Despite these impressive victories a title bout eluded Franklin. Louis had been immersed in his “Bum of the Month Club” fights, a point criticized in a flyer sent out by a Franklin publicity man which stated “Joe Louis is the only champion in boxing history allowed to conduct his own private tournament…made up of hand-picked, panty-waisted stooges, all of whom have been knocked out by the champion…this round-robin affair seems to have the support and blessing of the press and various boxing commissions…how much longer can they get away with this brazen racket?” Boxing scribes soon picked up on this chant and began to suggest that Louis and his promoter, Mike Jacobs, were ducking the man whom they were now referring to as “The Dark Destroyer”. They began to compare Lem’s plight to that of Sam Langford, the great heavyweight from the 1910s-20s who was so feared that it was all but impossible to get Champion Jack Johnson to give him the title shot he had so rightfully earned. “The ferocious Franklin has established himself now, and will be heard from every time Louis tackles anybody else…” wrote sportswriter Harry Grayson. Hurley vented his frustrations to the press as well: “Mike Jacobs has some boys down there that he’s protecting- Joe Louis, Billy Conn, Buddy and Max Baer and Lou Nova…they’re trying to keep Lem in the second flight by not offering one of these ‘untouchables,’” he complained. “I had the old ‘Fargo Express’ Billy Petrolle, for 5 years and couldn’t get him a title fight until he was too old…there wasn’t a better fighter around at the time and everybody knew it. It’s the same with Franklin.”

    Joe Louis felt the pressure and promoter Jacobs knew he couldn’t circumvent Franklin for long. Elimination matches with Melio Bettina and Bob Pastor were suggested by Jacobs, with the winner to get a title shot with Louis in September of 1942. Bettina was an awkward southpaw who could make his fighter look bad, so Hurley instead chose Pastor. “Bicycle Bob” had a reputation as being a tricky spoiler, having dampened the prospects of such up and comers as Turkey Thompson, Booker Beckwith and Roscoe Toles. But Lem had a solid track record against such fighters already (Blunt, Reddish), and seemed like the safer route considering Franklin’s record against Louis’s former KO victims. The bout was set for February 24, 1942 in Cleveland with Lem installed as a heavy favorite. But fans still anticipated this classic boxer vs. puncher matchup; the spoiler of slayers vs. the slayer of spoilers.

    13, 278 fans packed the Cleveland Arena, setting a record indoor gate. Private Joe Louis was at ringside along with Mike Jacobs to watch a fight sportswriters later described as “One of the game’s biggest surprises since Jim Braddock wrested the heavyweight crown from Max Baer.” Franklin took an early lead, pounding the defensive-minded Pastor with hard shots and opening a gash above his left eye. It looked bad for Bob. But by the fifth round Lem was tiring from his attempts for an early knockout. He began to flounder, giving Pastor the opportunity he’d waited for. He put on a boxing clinic, opening up with a steady stream of peppering jabs, hooks and crosses that found Lem’s face time and again over the next few rounds. A flurry of some thirty unanswered blows in the eighth round finally crumpled the hometown favorite to the canvas, where he was counted out.
     
  5. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    Thanks and great article. And the part about hand picked opponents, I'll say that the more things change the more they stay the same
     
  6. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    The criticism of Louis not fighting Franklin is ludicrous. Franklin was only a top contender for a few months before getting knocked out in three successive fights. The first of those came against Bob Pastor who Louis had already defeated twice. After that Lem Franklin won two of his next 9 fights, getting knocked in almost all of those. People have criticized that Abe Simon got a title shot after being stopped by Franklin but that was a charity bout and as such designed to be a softer touch. After getting stopped by Pastor Franklin had no claim or cause to criticize anybodys matchmaking.

    I have the radio broadcast of Pastor-Franklin. Fun fight to listen to. There was speculation that Pastor would get a third shot at Louis after this fight. In the post interview Franklin blames his loss on his weight being a little low.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Well from 1940-1942 Franklin won 19 fights in a row, beating some of Louis title opponents. Let's take a look.

    1 ) Simon KO 5 ( faster than Louis )
    2 ) Musto KO 2 ( much faster than Louis )
    3 ) Bivins KO 9, ( Louis took Bivins the distance )

    Pre 1940
    4 ) Savold KO2, ( Louis took 6 rounds to stop him )

    What we have here is one guy on a roll, doing better than Joe Louis himself vs the same competition, nitpick on the dates if you must.

    If you want to be honest most of Louis title opponents had similar stories, 1-2 losses did not DQ any of the white guys in the 1930's or 40's, Klompton and you know it. So how can you apply a double standard for the black opponents of the times? It just does not seem fair. Just two of Louis 26 title defense were vs Black opponents. One had vision issues, the other likely beat him on points the first time and was on his way in the re-match until he showboated and got caught late. Those are the facts.

    Franklin was worthy of a title shot, Louis didn't mix it with most of the top black talents of the time, his choice. Clearly, Franklin at his best was better than many of the " bum of the month guys ", he was just the wrong color to be in that club.
     
  8. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    I had read that this was because the paying public would not have payed as much to see two black fighters fight each other. In that sense, I can understand fighting an opponent who'd bring you more money because after all, fighting is how Louis or any other champion pays their bills and keep their lights on. So if fighter A will only bring me a thousand dollars and fighter B will bring me 10,000 dollars, it makes sense to fight B, even if A is a better opponent.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You might want to check the purse gates in Louis vs Walcott . Let me show you

    Louis vs Walcott 1
    A crowd of 18,194 produced a gate of $216,477

    Louis vs Walcott 2.
    • A crowd of 42,667 at Yankee Stadium produced a gate of $841,739.
    • Louis' purse was $250,000, and Walcott's was $125,000.

    I'm not buying that the public would not pay to see it.
     
  10. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    19 fights against predominantly non descript opposition. He didn't fight a contender until late 1941 and got knocked out by Pastor in early 1942. Hence he was only a contender for a few months.

    Bivins was a light heavyweight. In fact when he fought Franklin he had only been a light heavyweight for 5 months and had never defeated a ranked heavyweight. Beating Bivins had no bearing on Franklin being any kind of contender for Joe Louis and what Louis did against Bivins a decade later is proof of nothing.

    Bivins beating Musto faster than Louis made people sit up and take notice but Musto had won only one of his previous three fights and managed to lose to the legendary (sarcasm) Nash Garrison in one of those. It wasn't until Franklin stopped Simon that he became a real contender. That fight was in October 1941. Four months later he lost by conclusive KO to Pastor and his career was basically over. So again, he was only a viable contender for a very short window. Considering Louis had, in the few months preceding Franklin becoming a contender, defeated both Conn and Nova in major fights against more threatening and qualified opposition than Franklin, its hard to see where any criticism can be levelled at Louis that he didn't just run right out defend against Franklin in the few months he had before Franklin got ruined. These fights took eight weeks minimum to promote. Louis was already on tap to fight Buddy Baer for charity in January so when exactly was he was supposed to defend against Franklin? Franklin was stopped the following month.

    Savold wasn't even a contender in 1939. He was a ham and egger at this point who was losing to every marginally talented fighter he fought. That victory didn't edge Fanklin toward a title shot one iota. It would be another 3 or 4 years before Savold became a fringe contender at best and that happened during the war years when the division was depleted and the old guard were on their way out.

    No, you have a guy who cobbled together exactly two wins that garnered him praise and publicity and moved into contender status. Those two wins took place in the span of one month. Four months later he lost to the next contender he faced by a four round KO and was never again a viable contender. You can claim Im nitpicking about time but time is everything here. He was a contender for four months and two of those, immediately preceding his knockout loss, where already booked up for Louis. Timing is everything here.

    If YOU want to be honest, and not try to assassinate the character of a great black champion (a pet hobby of yours) you will admit that in the months preceding Franklin becoming a contender Louis defeated the two most threatening fighters on the scene and in the few short months after Franklins status was reduced to rubble.

    Franklin was worthy for four months and then get knocked out in four rounds by a white guy Louis had defeated twice. Anyone else Louis didn't defend against who was black either was similarly, like Franklin, a "contender" for a very short period only to lose to a white guy Louis beat, or came along while the title was frozen and did in fact face Louis after the war. Easily one of the weakest arguments in boxing is that Louis was ducking all of these guys. All you have to do is look at the timing and economics of it to realize its bull****.
     
  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    You answered your own argument. The first fight drew $216.477. Conn 2 drew 10 times that. The entire gate for the first Walcott fight wouldn't have paid Conn's purse. The second Walcott fight was four times the size of the first because there was suddenly interest after the outcome of the first. The first time around Walcott was considered a relatively weak challenger. Even then the gate was less than half that of Louis-Conn 2. The Louis-Nova fight, held six years before the first Walcott fight while we were still in the depression, made more than twice as much as Louis-Walcott 1. Same with Louis-Conn. Sorry, but the economics don't support you. In fact, they say that even after the war with the public starved for a heavyweight championship, there had to be some drama or story in order to sell a guy like Walcott, Charles, Bivins, etc. You can go look at their box office and see that they were being outsold by white fighters and in the case of those guys you cant even argue that during Louis' reign, when he was active, they deserved a shot at him above the guys he fought.
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Well, that was Billy Conn. What about the other 25 title defenses? If Louis made less in other title fights, then this business that 2 black fighters won't draw is utter bs, and you know it.

    As for your other post, you are nitpicking. Pick all you want but your inability to acknowledge other points and facts made redefines tunnel vision and myopia.

    You're better off saying Franklin, unlike many of Joe Louis opponents could box and punch, meaning he has a chance to upset.

    The gate for Louis vs John Henry Lewis had a crowd of 17,350 produced a gross gate of $102,015.43. Again, the attendance and gate are fine here for an all black title fight, wouldn't you agree?

    Louis had relatively weak opposition in general and fought title matches vs guys who lost a lot.
     
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This is the Ring Magazine annual heavyweight rankings at the end of 1940:

    Champion--Joe Louis
    1-----Max Baer
    2-----Arturo Godoy
    3-----Red Burman
    4-----Abe Simon
    5-----Buddy Walker
    6-----Buddy Baer
    7-----Pat Comiskey
    8-----Lee Savold
    9-----Otis Thomas
    10----Lem Franklin

    Joe Louis' record in 1941

    Red Burman----KO 5
    Gus Dorazio----KO 2
    Abe Simon------KO 13
    Tony Musto------TKO 9
    Buddy Baer------W DQ 7
    Billy Conn--------KO 13
    Lou Nova---------KO 6

    Now notice Louis KO'd the #3, #4, and also basically KO'd the #6 man going in, as well as Conn and Nova who were probably the #1 contenders when he met them.

    Louis' record as champion in this single year is actually better than most champions over their entire reigns. He has more defenses in this one year than Dempsey had in seven, or even Marciano, more worthy as a fighting champion, had in three.

    And how is this spun. What a performance? No. It is a "Bum of the Month" tour.

    Forgive me for wondering how such a performance by Dempsey would have been greeted.

    To be clear, I think the whole "Bum of the Month Club" thing was pretty rank racism against Louis.

    As for Franklin, I think Klompton2 has covered the ground, so no reason to go back over it. Franklin had a big run but quickly fell apart before he could seal a shot at Louis. He would have been an interesting contender.
     
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  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Excellent summary!
     
  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    You have no other points and facts. Im not nitpicking ****. The guy was a ****ing contender for FOUR MONTHS. Louis was a champion for roughly 181 months. Of those four months out of 181 that Franklin was a contender 3 were tied up with either Louis, or Franklin signed to fight someone else. i.e. the point your pee brain cant seem to wrap itself around is that Franklin had a window of literally WEEKS in which he could have been signed to fight Louis before he got knocked out in four rounds by a white guy Louis had already defeated twice...

    That is the only point germane to the discussion. The idea that Louis was ducking Franklin because he was afraid of a guy who only half successfully picked over the corpses of Louis' sloppy seconds is laughable to anyone who can read, do math, and has the comprehension of a 4th grader.

    As for the Louis-Lewis gate notice how it was a fight between two sitting champions. However, 2 years later when Louis defended against another sitting LHW champion the gate was almost five times that size, etc. You aren't exactly helping your argument. Louis was defending against the guys he had to. Who are all of these guys he ducked? Lem Franklin, who Ive just beat you over the head with? Jimmy Bivins, who wasn't considered a contender until after Louis was frozen from the war effort? Walcott who didn't become a contender until after the war and even then was considered a weak one? Charles, again not until after the war. Curtis Sheppard who didn't beat even a fringe contender until after 1944 had dawned and Louis was frozen? Likewise with Lee Q Murray, Elmer Ray and Turkey Thompson. Who exactly am I missing that Louis SHOULD have fought, that was HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the guys he actually did fight? Nobody. Period. Skin color doesn't have anything to do with the equation except for the fact that people were paying more money to watch white fighters than to watch the black extremely fringe contenders that you are now trumpeting.