Any information on Lem Franklin

Ed,

Thank you, you are going to illustrate my point.

1940? Why?

Lets look at Ring Magazine annual ratings in 1941, shall we? Lem Franklin is rated #2 overall, which is better than the #3, #4, and #6 man Louis faced in 1940. There is a good case he deserved a title shot. One loss didn't mean much in those days.

Louis, Champion

1. [url]Billy Conn[/url]
2. [url]Lem Franklin[/url]
3. [url]Bob Pastor[/url]
4. [url]Melio Bettina[/url]
5. [url]Abe Simon[/url]
6. [url]Turkey Thompson[/url]
7. [url]Buddy Baer[/url]
8. [url]Lou Nova[/url]
9. [url]Arturo Godoy[/url]
10. [url]Roscoe Toles[/url]

 

Those are the ratings at the end of the year, not at the beginning or at the points at which Louis was defending his title.

And even in this rating, Louis had beaten the #1, #5, #7, and #8 contenders in 1941.

He also had beaten the #3 and #10 contenders earlier.

I don't dispute that Franklin had gotten to a top contender position by the end of the year, before his career abruptly went into the dumpster.

My dispute is criticizing Louis for what amounts to probably the greatest single yearly performance by a heavyweight champion in history.

"1940? Why?"

Because that reflects the ratings going into 1941 and reflects the ratings during the year. These ratings reflect how these contenders stood after Louis had beaten four of them that year.

 

Or he had the best winning streak of the time for two years. The old he lost so he's out strategy did not apply to many of Louis title opponents and you know it. I pointed out Franklin closed 1942 as the 2 Contender, which is higher than anyone Louis faces in 1941! A fact. I also pointed out Franklin beat the same completion, but more impressively in several cases.

What was Conn then? Didn't you mention Conn's name in a bad argument about the live gates? Yep. Don't act like we don't know Louis fought many guys below 200 pounds. Weight didn't mean much back then, and Bivins was so awful Ring Magazine listed him in the top 50 all-time heavyweights.

This is the first time you actually said Franklin beat a contender.

If you are going to harp on a lone loss eliminated a Joe Louis title opponent, he's not fighting any of them. They all lost their share. So Franklin lost to Pastor who by the way made Louis look bad in their first fight Pastor had no issues fighting many of the top black fighters Louis didn't by the way, but I'm sure you know that already.

Can you even show me negations between the two from 1940-1942? Franklin was not on Joe Louis radar for a reason, he wasn't a bum without skills and punch with no chance. He was a KO puncher with skills, who happened to be black, hence Louis wasn't running to meet him, quite the opposite. Blame his management if you must, it is a fact.

Louis resume full of ham and eggers, guys who would not even sniff the top ten today, which you view as terrible. To use your standard, all I need to do is fine one loss, then I can say he's out, and you won't find a 19 winning streak, for most of the guys Louis gave title shots to. Do I really need to show you their records when he fought them, their ages, and very few of which attained a #2 rating as Franklin did.

Ali and Holmes are my #1 and #2 heavies dude, my positions before you joined this board or became banned and rejoined. The two were rather racy. Louis was actually an American hero. We could use him today with this take a knee business. Back to the point. What I'm saying here is if it bothers you that Jack Johnson avoided his best black contenders as champion and Louis fought only 2 of them in 26 title matches, so what. Go ad hominem and play the race card, I never said one racy thing on this board about anyone. You however have. I recall you saying Italians DNA makes them cheat. Horrible. Your words, not mine. There is no real debate on this, the numbers are what they are and the purse for Walcott 2, shows there was money in it.

 

If there was justice, Franklin did enough to earn a title shot. That's what I'm saying even if he lost to Pastor. So what, most of Louis opposition lost to worst than that. Franklin would be among the better of Louis title opponents, wouldn't you agree?

 

Streaks don't mean **** if there is no quality to the opposition. Franklin's win streak against anyone remotely proven at heavyweight went back one month and encompassed two fights. Immediately after those two fights his entire career went up in flames.

Conn was a sitting light heavyweight champion. Light heavyweight champions have always been given deferential treatment when getting a shot at the title. Nevermind that Conn had knocked out Bob Pastor and defeated several other heavyweights, more in fact that Jimmy Bivins when you think Bivins was some kind of contender at HW. And Frankly when Conn got his shot at Louis he had a better record against both heavyweights and light heavyweights than Franklin ever did and deserved his shot more on top of the fact that he accomplished all of that before Franklin ever fought a ranked opponent.

This is the first time you've ever said I said Franklin beat a ranked contender. The sky is blue. The grass is green. Its hot outside. Milk comes from cows...

It wasn't a lone loss though was it? In Franklins 10 fights after becoming a contender he won 2 and was knocked out 7 times. As for Pastor its comical you try to paint him as this hero for fighting (and beating these black guys that Louis supposedly ducked but ignore the fact that Louis beat Pastor not once but twice). Again, who are these guys Louis ducked and when because Pastor beat Toles, Bivins, Franklin, Thompson, and Beckwith, yet Louis beat him, twice, and somehow Louis is ducking those other guys... Louis also beat Conn, who beat Pastor, and stopped him twice. Should I go on?

Why should Louis negotiate with anyone? Louis is a fighter. For a fight to be made a promoter has to decide its economically viable and then hazard the money to make it happen, then negotiate with both fighters. Can you show me any promoter anywhere ever that attempted to promote a Louis-Franklin fight and was turned down by Louis in favor of an easier opponent? If you cant then shut the **** up! Because that's what this boils down to, you have this childish, simplistic view of how fights are made: A champion goes out and picks his opponent then magically a venue, purses, etc materialize out of thin air a fight happens and the fighters get paid. No. It doesn't work like that. A fighter has to create a fanbase, then a promoter says "gee, I can make some money matching him with Louis" negotiation start, a date is set in the not too distant future, the fighters train while the promotion is being worked out, the fight comes off, everyone gets paid, etc. In the four short months that Franklin had any juice at all can yo show me where a real promoter was trying to stage his fight, keeping in mind that for part of that four months Louis was already signed to fight Baer, and the other part Franklin was already signed to fight Pastor, who just so happened to be his stiffest fight and who knocked him out closing his window. You just cant wrap your head around the economics of it or the logistics.

yeah, Louis was horrible. Never fought anyone. That's why he is consistently ranked as one of the most beloved athletes of all time and a top three heavyweight...

And no, you don't need to find one loss, you need to find 8 out of 10, seven being knockouts with the two wins coming against complete nobodies. Then you would have someone who compares with Franklin. If you can show me Louis defending against anyone with such a devastatingly comprehensive fall please do.

Your position didn't exist before I joined this board and we both know you've been banned more than I have. This is what, your third, fourth iteration here? I was actually a writer for this website before you ever knew it existed. Judging by your lack of critical thinking I was here before you were born. Ive said my piece. I have no doubt anyone with half a brain can understand my points and will agree. Anyone who doesn't is a moron with an agenda like yourself.

 

Justice. There was no justice in Louis racing to fight a guy who couldn't even maintain his status as a contender for HALF A YEAR... Four of the 8 guys Franklin lost to when you want Joe Louis to fight him were beaten by Louis. The two guys he beat to become a contender, Louis beat. Beyond that his record is paper thin. I think Joe Louis doesn't need me to defend himself against some moron on the internet who has been caught lying so many times hes become a complete joke on this forum. His record stands for itself. Franklins lays down and gets counted ten over for itself...

 

Well, Franklin was not a top contender to Louis for as long as Johnson was to Jeffries, and probably no longer than Denver Ed Martin was to Jeffries.

Now I don't think either Louis or Jeffries deserve criticism for not defending against Franklin or Martin. Both men looked good on runs which brought them high contender status, and then both fell completely apart with a series of bad losses.

But you don't seem consistent to me. You defend Jeff, I think fairly, but it is slash and burn with Louis, despite Louis making SEVEN defenses that year, more than any heavyweight champion I can think of ever did in one year.

And if you have evidence that Conn and Nova were not the LEADING contenders when they got into the ring with Louis, not just contenders, present the evidence for evaluation. Let's have the articles from folks asking why Louis was fighting Conn (or later Nova) rather than Franklin.

 

Franklin would have been interesting, but you probably accurately described Tony Musto as the worst of the men who challenged Louis for the title in 1941.

Musto had defeated Franklin on April 13, 1939. Franklin didn't reverse this loss until 9/24/1941, five days before Louis defended against Nova. Even the win over Bivins came on 7/14/1941, after the Conn fight.

It seems impossible for you to understand a timeline.

I would be willing to bet that Conn, because of his great run at heavy and light-heavy, and Nova, because of his crushing KO of the #1 ranked former champion Baer in March, were the two top rated contenders that summer when Louis fought them.

 

I don't think Ed really helped you out much there did he?lol

 

I agree franklins stay on top was too short lived to warrant a duck, the timing was a bit off, and the pastor loss blew his big reputation.

What I would like to know is why couldn’t louis have fit in Franklin in simons place as the charity world title fight in 42?

 

Reasonable question. The two challengers in New York were Jewish, and the object was to make money for the Army and Navy relief funds. There might be a connection.

But with Louis donating his purse it seems a bit much to demand he fight someone other than Buddy Baer, especially as Louis had unfinished business with Baer.

 

I know Baer donated a % of his purse,perhaps Simon did too?Perhaps also Hurley and Franklin weren't prepared to do that? I'd guess that you are right, that both Baer and Simon were sure to bring in good gates .Baer had given Louis a scare and Simon had gone in to the 13th rd first time around.

 

Thats not up to Louis. Promoters and matchmakers decide who they think they can make money with and then build the fight. Its not up to Louis to be champion, matchmaker, promoter, head of the ratings committe etc. Louis only responsibility is to beat whoever they put in front of him.

 

Here is an old post by a good poster who sadly doesn't come here anymore.It explains the time line.In response to you stating Louis should have fought Franklin in1941/42


"Let's not forget that Franklin did also lose to Musto, and needed three attempts to beat Eddie Simms, whom Louis KO'd in 30 seconds.

In June 1941 Louis KO'd #1 ranked Conn and in September 1941 he KO'd #1 ranked Nova. Two men higher ranked than Franklin. The following month Franklin broke his hand in a win over Abe Simon, which put him out of action for several months.

Louis defended against Buddy Baer in January 1942. You could say Franklin was more deserving, except that would mean Franklin having to fight Louis whilst still recovering from his broken hand. Franklin beat two journeymen and then in February 1942 got KO'd by two-time Louis victim Pastor and was never in contention again. He went 2-7, 6 losses by KO after losing to Pastor.

There was only a small timeframe when you can say Franklin was in the hunt for a shot at Louis but in the mean time Louis fought two higher ranked men, then Franklin got injured, and then he lost to another contender and declined pretty rapidly. He was certainly no Harry Wills. "

[url]Berlenbach[/url], [url]Nov 27, 2015[/url]



You used Franklin to try and tear down Louis before and got shot down in flames instead.

Mendoza said: In response to when should Louis have fought Franklin?
"1941 or 1942."

"Franklin was the #2 contender in 1941 by ring magazine annual ratings, and quite possibly could have been #1 in the monthly rating for a period of time.

Franklin was on a roll. He won 18 fights in a row and defeated Bivins, Musto, and Simon!

Franklin KO over Simon 5 in and KO over Musto in 2!

It took Louis longer to stop the same guys. KO 13 and 6 ( Simon's last fight ) over Simon, and KO 9 Over Musto.

Hmmm....

Musto was a joke of a title defense for Joe Louis. Not only was he 29-10-1, he also lost 4 of his last 6 fights, then suddenly got a title shot from Louis."



McVey replied.
Of those 29 wins, one was over Curtess Sheppard,one over Buddy Knox, a 3 rds ko over Johnny Risko,and a win over a guy called Lem Franklin.

[url]mcvey[/url], [url]Nov 27, 2015[/url]