Any information on Lem Franklin

Q If Musto was a joke how come he beat Franklin?

 

Great discussion...

I think it’s clear Louis shouldn’t receive any criticism here...

Franklins stay on top was too short lived.

 

What impresses me here is, when this came up 4 years ago you held the opposite opinion,but you have been prepared to alter it after sifting through the facts.Fair play to you!
I might add Mendoza still holds his original view,but then he is an acknowledged Louis detractor,never missing an opportunity to bad mouth him.

 

Ed,


This thread has shown the live gate wasn't the reason for the lack of title opponents who were black. Those fights drew just fine. So if it wasn't the money, what's the problem?

Simply stated I think Louis was perfectly fine fighting easier marks, very few of who had skills and power.

Only 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs black opponents. We aren't talking about a 1 or 2-year window, we are talking about a long career as the champion. Why should Louis get a pass when there were guys out there like Ray, Franklin, Thompson, and others who were better than several of Louis's white title opponents?

No all of Louis matches were vs leading contenders. Most were not. Franklin was good enough to achieve a #2 status. Ed Martin as you mention was never close to #2 while Jeffries was champion, nor did he win 19 matches in a row as Franklin did. While I agree with you, Louis making 7 defenses in a year is very impressive, I just wonder why one of them could not have been against, a talent like say, Franklin. The most likely answer is he didn't want to risk it.

 

So are you saying Joe's promoters protected him from the best black talents? That type of excuse your offering can be applied to Dempsey avoiding Willis, which is something you and I both agree on.

 

You are funny. I think Musto was a joke of a title defense. I'll stand on that comment correctly. Why would Louis pick Musto over a more qualified man like Franklin? Please tell us! You remain the Dunning–Kruger of this board!

Yes--Franklin was #2 overall and beat several of the same guys Louis did in more impressive fashion. Those are facts which I stated that only add to his case.

 

If one or two losses omits a potential title opponents, Louis would not have many people to fight. But lets talk about a loss for a moment. It has NOTHING to do with Louis not picking a person next.


The following fighters were given a match with Joe Louis coming off a LOSS:

Godoy 2x, McCoy, Simon, and Davis. If one loss DQ's Franklin from the conversation, how come it did not apply to these fighters? Clearly a recent loss didn't bar these guys from a title shot, but one loss from Franklin after winning 19 in a row and being #2 ranked did? Sorry, this is a double standard.


The following fighters had weak rerecords and had no business getting a title shot:

Roper, Thomas, and Musto. None of these guys were better than Franklin.

 

Louis didnt need protecting from Franklin as evidenced by the fact that several men Louis beat beat Franklin. When you want to answer my question about all of these other black fighters Louis ducked and when then we can address that. Until then Ill just continue to assume this is another slow day in the life of a troll.

 

Franklin wasnt a more worthy guy than Musto when Louis fought him because Musto had Franklins scalp on his record at that point. It wasnt until several months AFTER Louis beat Musto that Franklin managed to. Musto may have been a poor challenger but considering Louis defended 7 times that year, twice against the two most threatening challengers in the division both of which came before Franklin was even considered a worthy challenger I can accept that he had a gimme. You are the one so focused on a guy who couldnt maintain any consistency at the highest level for more than a few months.

 

But we arent talking about one or two losses here and there. Jesus christ you have the comprehension of labrador retriever. We are talking about a string of 8 losses in 10 fights losing 7 by KO, 3 in the first round. That losing streak started 4 months after he was considered a top contender. Say what you will about Musto and his losses but he wasnt getting stopped in any of them barring one that was the result of a cut eye and they were coming against men either more experienced or with a better record or both than those that bowling over Franklin.

 

No Im saying rather than say “why didnt Louis make the fight” a better question is: “where was the offer by a promoter to stage Louis-Franklin.” Thats how fights were made. There were numerous offers by promoters to stage Dempsey-Greb or Dempsey-Wills, so at the end of the day if those offers are ignored thats on Dempsey. Can anyone here show me even a single offer by a promoter to stage Louis-Franklin?? If not then the idea that Louis ducked this guy or that guy is ridiculous.

 

When Lem Franklin beat Abe Simon in October 1942 that was his coming out party. He got a number 2 rating by the NBA and his chances against Louis were being measured by the press. However, he broke his hand against Simon which left him out of commission for nearly two months. Jack Hurley didnt want to have to sign over a percentage of Franklins contract to Mike Jacobs for a title shot so he reasoned that he would bide his time, build his fighter up, and have the leverage with backing by the ratings organization, press, etc to force a title fight without giving up a percentage OR if Louis retired (as was being discussed in the press at the time) Franklin was well placed to take part in an eliminator and win the title outright with no strings attached. To this end, in December of 1941, Franklin was matched with Bob Pastor who had given Louis and Conn good fights the two years previous. The Franklin-Pastor fight was seen as a big deal with a lot of national coverage. Sam Taub and Bill Stern made the trek to Cleveland to cover the fight for radio which was only done outside of New York for major promotions, title fights, etc. Franklin was made a heavy favorite and it was believed that the fight would set the stage for a title shot. Louis and Mike Jacobs listened to the radio broadcast of the fight waiting for the result to decide Louis’ next move. Pastor, who was given only an outside chance of boxing to a decision, upset the applecart and shocked everyone by taking Franklins best shots in the first two rounds then turned the tables by steadily wearing him down with bodyshots before dropping him face first in the 8th for the ten count. With Franklin out of the running and Pastor having already been beaten twice by Louis, Joe signed to fight Abe Simon in a charity bout in which he agreed at the time of the signing to donate his entire purse.

So you see, there is a lot more to this story than just “Louis was ducking Franklin.” As Ive said numerous times the window for this fight was very small and Franklin, partly by his managers design, had to thread a needle to hit it and couldnt.

 

I agree with you that franklin was a far more worthy challenger than some of Louis title opponents. Franklin was a massive puncher with good size.

However, his reign on top at number 2 was so short lived its hard to criticize Louis for missing out on him, especially since joe fought just two more times for Charity fights then went into the army.

Had Louis not gone in the army would he have fit franklin in?

 

Musto beat Franklin.If he was a joke what was Franklin?

"Of course, this is boxing, and boxing is nothing if not cruel to almost all its participants. Franklin’s success would not last. Two more wins would start 1942, but then his career would unravel quickly. Bob Pastor knocked Lem out in 8 rounds in late February. One month later, Franklin and Harry Bobo would exchange knockdowns in the first round, but Bobo would score more of them, winning in that very first round. Three months after that, prospect Joe Muscato would score a first round TKO over Lem.

Three straight knockout losses immediately following a number 2 ranking was discouraging to say the least. A sixth month layoff followed, and then a quick knockout win over Altus Allen helped put Lem back into the win column. He would then rematch Lee Savold, who himself was now a legit contender. Franklin started strong, dropping Savold early, and building a big points lead. But by the eight round, Savold had turned the tide, and was beating Franklin up. In the 10th, a huge right hand landed for Lee, and put Lem down for the count. A third fight between the two men occurred just two months later. This time, Franklin started strong again, scoring knockdowns in the first and second, but he wilted faster than before, and Savold knocked him out in the eighth."
Franklin's record against top ten ranked fighters was W1. L5.


Top ten opponents: W-TKO-5 Abe Simon, L-KO-8 Bob Pastor, L-KO-1 Harry Bobo, L-KO-10, L-KO-8 Lee Savold, L-UD-10 Gus Dorazio

-1 total score (1 + -4+ 0 + 2)

The stick you are using to try and beat Louis with just broke!

 

"the live gate"

I agree with you. I think black fighters against Louis would probably have drawn decent gates. But I do think this is a bit beside the point.

"Only 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs black opponents."

Actually 3 of his 25 were. One against Lewis, and two against Walcott. If you are using 26 defenses, who is the 26th? That fellow Davis? I don't know his race, but that wasn't a real defense anyway. I think boxrec is just wrong on that one. Some credit the Charles fight as a defense for Louis, with Louis being viewed as the lineal champion. If you look at it that way, it makes it 4 of 26. That is more defenses against black contenders than all previous champions combined.

"easy marks. Very few had skills or power"

In 1941 he fought Conn, probably the most skilled fighter out there, and the huge Buddy Baer, who had a great KO record, better even than Franklin. And Nova was coming off a crushing KO of Max Baer and had a rep as a decently skilled guy for his size. And Louis at other times defended against Schmeling and Walcott, both of whom had both skills and power.

"Ed Martin"

I think Martin's record as a rising contender is more impressive than Franklin's. His only loss was in his debut fight against the world class Bob Armstrong. The next year he also had a draw with Armstrong, but he later won two fights against Armstrong. Except for two early fights against debuting fighters, all his victories were over fighters with winning records. Martin didn't have a 19 bout winning streak, but he was 15-1-1, w/o the bad defeats which spotted Franklin's early career, and his victims--Frank Childs, Hank Griffin, Sandy Ferguson, and Armstrong--were a considerably better group I think than Franklin's. Matt rated Martin the #3 contender in 1902 behind only Fitz and Ruhlin, so I don't see much to choose between Martin and Franklin on that score, and Ruhlin rating above Martin might be arbitrary.

"Ray, Franklin, Thompson . . . were better than several of Louis' white opponents."

I think this is pointless unless we are talking the same time frame. Also, Louis made extra defenses in cities which hadn't gotten heavyweight championship fights. A chance for the locals to see a big fight. The promoters matched him with a popular local guy. That is why Roper, Musto, McCoy, and Dorazio got shots. Harry Thomas had been matched with Schmeling, and was then matched with Louis in a tune-up for the big Schmeling bout as folks were interested in how Louis would stack up against Schmeling's performance.

"a talent like say, Franklin"

This "talent" lost to Musto, was KO'd by Joe Muscato, was KO'd twice by Lee Savold, and lost to Gus Dorazio. Fighters a lot less talented than Pastor beat him badly.

"The most likely answer is he didn't want to risk it."

The better answer is that Louis defended that year against mostly better fighters such as Conn, Nova, and Baer.