Any Jack Dempsey fans here?

We are talking about Jack Dempsey in this post and not what fighter dodged another fighter...Most every heavyweight of note, did not fight a deserving opponeny, for WHATEVER reason...Most of the time it was financial reasons,I'm quite sure...
Jack Johnson avoided Langford
Dempsey never fought Wills, [signed contract,but money reasons fight off.
Tunney never fought Jack Sharkey, Harry Wills
Joe Louis never fought Lee Q Murray, Jimmy Bivens, whatever reasons
My point is that some posters single out certain fighters for whatever motive and diminish certain fighters abilities without knowing much of the true reasons of those past days...I am confident any of the above {avoiders] would have won their bouts , where they to have occured...

 

Non-Pareil, The reason why Dempsey called himself Jack, it was after this guy.

 

Dempsey, along with Joe Frazier and the Hit Man, is the guy that, to me, most exudes "fighter".

And he was one of the very greatest I have ever seen as well: savageness and technique; power and brains; excitement and class.

No wonder he was voted far and away the greatest pound-for-pound fighter, not merely heavyweight, of all times.

 

Difference is..

Jack Johnson has those names under his win column. He beat Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeanette. He may not have beaten them at their best, but he at least beat them. That's more than dempsey can say..he doesn't have any versions of Wills, Langford, Jeanette, Johnson, Greb, Norfolk, Godfrey on his resume.

 

Dempsey never fought the best heavyweight of his time (Wills), didn't fight one of the best lightheavyweights of his time (Harry Greb; in title eliminators between Greb - Gibbons and Greb - Brennan, Dempsey of course choose to fight the losers of those fights) and twice failed to beat the best lightheavyweight of his time (Tunney).


I don't really see the point of quoting all those lists from the 50's-70's, because:

a) There have 4-5 great heavyweights since the 70's, leaving less space for Dempsey
b) Most of them were rating on romanticized, 20+ year old thoughts of perhaps having seen Dempsey once. Totally unreliable. Watchable film of him only became available throughout the 60's for SOME people. Same with complete records.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have Dempsey outside of the top10. His opposition was weak and he avoided several challenges, but somehow got away with it because of his exciting style, even today. Mind you, I don't think it's unreasonable to have him in the top10, either. But it wouldn't be my personal choice.

 

Nice Post :good

 

He stood out in his era, power, speed and killer instinct and toughness....I was always a big fan of Dempsey and he is in my top 5-10, unfortunately he was not as active as I would have liked and should have fought Harry Wills, who I think he would have stopped but a lot of people overlook Holmes not fighting the best of his era so If I put Larry in my top 10, I must put Jack there.

 

Not fighting the number one contender, for whatever reason, is not, as some seem to think, unique in Jack Dempsey's case. We can't assume Jack would have lost if he had...no more than we can assume that Wladimir would lose if he fought his number 1 contender.

It was a different time, with a different political landscape to operate in...and just as importantly...a difference in how the common man thought at that time. Easy to take potshots at the people in that era while sitting on this 2010 mountain that they helped build.

 

djanders,well said...To some the name Jack Dempsey is like a red flag to a bull...They lose their sense of perspective...In the case of Jack Dempsey not fighting Harry Wills,I try to explain that the two were set to meet,but money issues arose and even though Dempsey and Wills signed for the bout it never came off...Who would have won that bout in Dempsey's prime ?.Well their common opponent was Luis Angel Firpo, who Wills fought
in a 12rd ND win...And Dempsey flattened Firpo in two rds in 1923...Sam Langford was 39-40 years old at that time, and Joe Jeanette was retired by then...So who in reality was Jack Dempsey ducking for fear of losing to .? Every heavyweight of note has not fought every worthy opponent,
as I have posted before....Boxing is a business, and a fighter's mgr picks
his opponents for his charge, and so with Jack Kearns and Dempsey...
I place great faith in the great boxing writers of yesterday who acclaimed the young Jack Dempsey of 1917-23, a "man killer ",and an immortal, in spite of revisionists ninety years laters efforts to belittle his greatness...

 

Burt,

Langford was 34 years old in 1917 when he publicly challenged Jack Dempsey. Dempsey refused to fight him. Wills had already been getting in the ring with Langford as back as 1914.

It was a 12 round ass whuppin. Firpo was floored twice and lost every round. Wills certainly didn't get floored 3 times and had to be illegally helped by a typewriter back into the ring like dempsey did.


Joe Jeanette was not retired. He was still active and posted a good record in the late teens. Sure he was old and past his prime, but still dangerous enough that when he got in the ring with Jack Dempsey for an exhibition..dempsey climbed out of the ring afraid to face the old man.


Take note Wills did not defeat McVea Langford Jeanette in the late teens..he beat them around 1914-1915 while they were young better and top rated.

 

From Monte Cox:

"...Dempsey has one of the best knockout records in history with an unparalleled winning streak of 32-0 with 28 knockouts, including 17 of them in the first round! His victims included most of the top heavyweight contenders of the period such as Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Al Palzer, Battling Levinsky, Gunboat Smith, K.O. Bill Brennan, Billy Miske, and his title-winning massacre of big Jess Willard.


Ray Arcel, one of the greatest trainers in boxing history, worked with 18 world champions including Barney Ross, Tony Zale, Ezzard Charles, Roberto Duran, and Larry Holmes. He was in the opposite corner from Joe Louis in 14 of his fights, and he also personally knew and learned from the great Benny Leonard. Arcel has stated that he considered Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey to be the three greatest heavyweights in history and hedged on picking between them, but here is what he said about Dempsey,
“He should’ve been the only heavyweight anybody ever thought of when they thought about the greatest heavyweight champion. I mean he had everything. He could punch, he could box. He was mean and determined.”
Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

a) Dempsey himself never ducked Wills. The topic has been beaten into the ground, but the legitimate element of business and the abominable one of prejudice denied Wills his chance, not the champion.

b) It is nothing more nor less than hubris to completely disregard the witnesses of any particular time in favor of one's impressions 90 years later.

c) I respect the record as well as the evidence of the best Dempsey on film. Even in grainy black and whilte, I see a uniquely lusty, skilled two-handed power puncher with great heart. He is truly one of the best fighters I have ever watched in black and white, and no one who has come since has made me admire Jack any less.

d) I am quite certain more than one of the "4 or 5 great heavyweights since the '70s" you have in mind came of age during the performance-enhancing-substance era, which Dempsey did not benefit from. Even so, they simply don't eclipse Dempsey's combination of skills and, in any event, should eject lower-tier greats such as, say, a Jeffries, than a near-consensus top-fiver such as Dempsey, unless of course your criteria are "new-and-improved" different.

e) I enjoyed your tussle here with other mainstays last year regarding Dempsey: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119043. Just consider me in the other camp.

 

Harry Wills accomplished more in Dempsey's era, than Jack did imo. That tells me something.

 

Does anyone still have that old Jeanette-Dempsey article? I am having trouble finding it with this awful new ESB search engine.