Any resume can be picked apart. Every fighter can be over or underrated.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Hookie, Aug 23, 2013.


  1. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    It's easy to do. Don't believe me, try me. My point? We all need to understand that no matter how much we know about boxing, this forum is generally about out OPINIONS. Opinions and facts are different... in case some of you didn't know that.

    Example:

    Rocky Marciano-

    He went 49-0 (43) overall and 7-0 (6) in HW World Title fights. He went 6-0 (5) vs. Hall of Famers. He beat every HW Champ from 1937-1952 (Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles x2, and Jersey Joe Walcott x2). He also beat LHW Champ, HW top contender, and Hall of Famer Archie Moore. He was down only twice in 49 pro fights and in both fights he stopped his opponent. He is the only HW Champ who retired without a loss (and stayed retired and undefeated). He is the only HW Champ who reached the 49-0 mark. He is 1 of only 3 Lineal HW Champs who were never stopped (Tunney and Bowe are the others). Most of Tunney's fights were at LHW and Bowe only fought a few decent fighters.

    or I could say this-

    He went just 9-4 before turning pro. He went 49-0 (43) as a pro but prior to winning the HW title he fought very few decent fighters. He should have lost to Roland LaStarza. He beat a totally washed up Joe Louis in Louis' last pro fight. He won the title vs. an almost 40 year old Walcott and went life and death with him in their first fight (Walcott also dropped him). He went life and death with a washed up Charles twice (their first fight was a close decision and in the rematch Marciano was almost stopped due to a split nose). He beat an old Moore but was knocked down in the fight. He was under 6' tall, under 190 Lbs. at his best, and his reach was under 70". He was dropped by former LHWs x2 and nearly stopped by a former MW.

    I could go on, but you get the point I hope.

    Proceed
     
  2. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    If we didn't overrate or underrate guys, and picked apart resumes in doing so, what would happen to this forum? We'd have John Garfield and Burt exchanging first hand reminisces with HOUDINI, Kikibalt and a few other eyewitnesses, historians like Klompton and Surf-Bat sharing newsworthy research and facts [S89, where are you?], but what would happen if subjective opinions were banned, or deleted like the old Lounge?

    Where would we go to talk ****? [Or do we all enter frankenfrank's school of Nadsat gibberish?]
     
  3. Shake

    Shake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    When you post things like this, it's like therapy. You have this striking realization, think it through and share it. It's a shame it doesn't benefit anyone else, as it is absolutely basic and offers no special insight.
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I honestly believe I could craft a semi convincing argument for pretty much anything.
     
  5. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree with you 100%, Hookie. I hate it when people speak with absolute CERTAINTY about a fighter, positive or negative, because it's easy to make a case the other way. Thanks for being reasonable.
     
  6. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    I feel ya. I once wrote a paper on why marijuana should be legal... got an A. Then I wrote one for another class on why it shouldnt be... and got an A. Most of us know plenty about boxing... its about who can tell the best story most of the time.
     
  7. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Bring back the lounge. :happy I miss reading the post there.
     
  8. albinored

    albinored Active Member Full Member

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    hookie...this is an excellent thread. nothing more to add....you stated it so well.:happy
     
  9. timmers612

    timmers612 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Agreed! Geeese I look now at films of boxers I saw fight decades ago, ones I thought top of the line, and now see the flaws and all. In the eye of he beholder they say,,,,
     
  10. thistle1

    thistle1 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    THIS.

    "well hath thou spoken Hookie"

    it IS Absolute Fact you can "present" 2 very different scenarios about ALL fighters. the balance lies in a consensus of numerous reports and even then some "high profile" reports can have an expected slant, the MAIN Trade Paper & their Top Reporters playing to tune.

    So you then go to as many other sources as possible, especially newspaper reports from as many local papers from where the fights took place.

    you gather ALL of it together and you can then conclude the Real and/or excepted facts.

    this IS EXACTLY the approach I took when researching and documenting my thesis on Bert Gilroy. I had to doubly be thorough and complete as the subject matter was close. But thank God it was ALL recorded and preserved long before I even came along!!!

    THIS IS the ONLY way Proper Research and conclusions can be seen & decided on ANY fighter. and certainly not the 'parroting' of forum loud mouthed bullies or know it all's.

    Well spoken Hook, Boxing History IS Littered with GREATS!!!
     
  11. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Iven after piking apart Duran's rezume end dedakting hiz "wins" over Buchanan end Moore , bat olso hiz "losses" 2 Ray Leonard , bikoz I pik epart rezumes bows weys , it turns aut det Duran iz e top 10 p4p et list if restrikting it 2 faiters born not b4 1940 .

    Qwait de seim wiz Sanchez , Carbajal , McCall , McCallum end posibli Tua , Froch end Mosley except meybi de top 10 part .
     
  12. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    No question this is true but then there is real debate v.s. idol worship v.s. mugslinging .. it is all not one category.
     
  13. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    ...a comeback could be something like this-

    Marciano fought the best fighters of his day. Some felt he lost to LaStarza but the fight was close and a case could be made either way. LaStarza was actually the favored fighter. Marciano stopped LaStarza in their rematch. He improved after the first fight vs. LaStarza.

    Louis was past prime but well prepared, he had won his last 8 bouts (3 by KO) including clear wins over C. Brion x2, F. Beshore KO4, O. Agramonte x2, L. Savold KO6, and Hall of Famer Jimmy Bivins. Marciano was never in trouble vs. Louis. He controlled the fight and stopped Louis in the 8th.

    Walcott was never better. He had been hot and cold thruout his career but he had never been better than he was the night he lost the HW title to Marciano. He had gone 2-2 (1) vs. Charles, he lost 2 to Louis but most felt he deserved the win in their first fight and he gave Louis a tough fight in their rematch before being stopped. He had Louis down in both fights. He had stopped Harold Johnson in the 3rd round. As for their rematch? Hard to tell how good Walcott was because he didn't make it past the 1st round.

    Charles was past prime but still very good. A case can be made that Charles should have won his last 18 fights. In reality he had gone 14-4 (9) in his last 18. The losses were his 4th fight vs. Walcott, his 2nd fight with Rex Layne (he went 2-1 (1) vs. Layne lifetime), vs. Nino Valdes, and Harold Johnson. During this stretch he beat Rex Layne x2, Joey Maxim, Bernie Reynolds, Cesar Brion, and Jimmy Bivins among others. Charles was well prepared vs. Marciano and really rose to the occasion. Marciano stopped Charles in the 8th round of their rematch.

    Moore was as good as ever vs. Marciano. A case could be made that Moore had not lost in his last 62 fights. In reality he had gone 57-4-1. 2 of the losses were by DQ, the other 2 were close and questionable, 1 was vs. Harold Johnson who he owned lifetime and would beat 2 more time (once by KO) prior to facing Marciano. He won 11 fights in a row between his fights with Marciano and Patterson, 8 by KO. Sure, he dropped Marciano... but Marciano got right up whipped his ass for most of the fight (dropping him 5 times) and stopped him in the 9th.
     
  14. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    He also beat Don C0ckell KO9, Roland LaStarza W10 and KO11, Harry Matthews KO2, Bernie Reynolds KO3, Lee Savold KO6, Freddie Beshore KO4, and Rex Layne KO6 among others.
     
  15. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    OK, Harry Greb ;)

    It can't be done. The facts are so overpowering that they cancel-out any dissension in opinion. Benny Leonard, too.