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My take on Sullivan When he came allong nobody could remember seeing a heavyweight with comparable powere or a man that size with similar handspeed. Since punchers are efectivley "born" punchers of a given weight will be of comparable power between two eras so presumably we are talking Dempsey or Marciano type power. People who saw him said that he was as fast as Joe Choynski. We have footage of Choynski sparring with Jeffries and he is cat quick. He was also said to be a varry scientific fighter by observers like Jack McAuliffe who were among the best technicians of their day. So what we are left with is a 5' 10'' heavyweight of 200 lbs with similar power and handspeed to Jack Dempsey. He is a scientific ofensive fighter by the standards of his day in the mould of Dempsey or Tyson. It is probably reasonable to say that he was better than Corbett or Fitzsimmons and on a similar level to Jeffries as a champion. What is also worth noting is that he was hailed as the GOAT during his career by people who had seem John C Heenan and after it by people who had seen Jeffries. For a fighter to be hailed as the GOAT during his career over cherished old timers he has to be truley exceptional.
John Sullivan was boxings first superstar.He dominated the heavyweight scene for 10 years, during the time when it emerged from the seedy world of bare-knuckle prizefights to become a mainstream sport under Marquis of Queensberry rules. John Lawrence Sullivan was born in Boston, Massachusetts, on 15th october 1858. His Irish father was small of stature but very handy with his fists. John L inherited those skills in abundance. He scrapped his way through the best Boston had to offer, then became the state champion when he beat Dan Dwyer, the recognised holder of that title. It wasn't long before this KO specialist from New England, nicknamed the "Boston Strong Boy", was the talk of fight fans everywhere. He raised his profile even more when hemet John Flood in 1881. Flood, who was known as the"Bulls Head Terror", was thought to be the man who could bring Sullivan's inexorable progress to a halt. The two met on a barge anchored in the Hudson river. The contest was conducted under London Prize Ring Rules, which also allowed wrestling holds. Such contests were of unlimited duration, each round continuing until one man went down. A floored fighter had 30 seconds to come to his feet and failure to do so meant defeat. The Sullivan-Flood fight lasted 16 minutes, during which time the"Bulls Head Terror" had been put down on eight occasions. Flood's cornerhad seen enough and threw in the towel. After taking a few more scalps, Sullivan earned himself a crack at America's recognised champion, Paddy Ryan. Ryan, a New Yorker who hailed from Tipperary, had won the title from Joe Goss in may 1880. The championship lineage of the previous 30 years hadn't always been totally pure. Some of the title claims in that time had been questionable. Sullivan was about to change all that. On Feb 7th 1882, he took the crown from Ryan, needing just 10 minutes to finish the job. Having put Ryan down a number of times already, Sullivan ended proceedings with a trip-hammer right, his greatest weapon. The title and the $5,000 purse, were his. A new boxing era was born. Sullivan proceeded to milk his newly aquired status for all it was worth. An extrovert and a braggart, he toured the country, throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who fancied his chances of going four rounds with the champion. Some 50 men tried their hand. Only one is said to have claimed the $1,000 prize on offer, and he was a rugged pro who used his experience and every trick in the book simply to survive the allotted time. Those vanquished by Sullivan during his travelling circus days do not feature in the record books. While his victims doubtless included many no-hopers, Sullivan must have faced the roughest, toughest bar-room brawlers every town had to offer. He cant be accused of being a sleeping champion, not in the early stages of his reign, at least. John was soon the idol of the masses. His exciting, all action fighting style, together with his charismatic personality, endeared him to a population only too keen to embrace a new sporting hero. By 1887, Sullivan's popularity was at its height. Boxing was the number one sport, with Sullivan its undisputed champion and star attraction Battle of the belts To coincide with his latest national tour, some of Boston's prominent citizens and sports fans decided to honour their city's favourite son with a trophy:a jewel-encrusted gold belt. It was inscribed with the words:"Presented to the Champion of Champions, John L. Sullivan, by the citizens of the United States, July 4, 1887". This was not the only belt in circulation, however. Richard K. Fox, publisher of the Police Gazzete, had also commisioned a belt to be made. This was awarded to his own heavyweight protege, a man named Jake Kilrain. Kilrain was a veteran Prize Fighter, one of the best men of his era, and Fox had issued a challenge to Sullivan to fight his man. When John turned him down, Fox responded by declaring Kilrain the champion, complete with new "championship" belt. Understandably, there was considerable needle between the two camps. When Sullivan was awarded his belt, he praised its superior craftsmanship and beauty compared with Kilrain's, which he disparagingly described as "a dog collar". The ill-feeling would rumble on for two more years before Sullivan and Kilrain could settle the issue inside the ring. First, there was an extended tour to Europe, where Sullivan had one man in particular in his sights: Englands Charley Mitchell. Sullivan and Mitchell had met before, at Madison Square Garden in May 1883. England's top fighter had crossed the atlantic, making it known that he had come with the express purpose of knocking Sullivan out. He couldn't back up his words on that occasion, however. Mitchell had been knocked out of the ring in the second round, and floored again in the third, at which point the police intervened to prevent the challenger from taking any more punishment. The bad blood between the two men was still in evidence five years later, when they met for a second time. The rematch took place near Chantilly, France, on the estate of Baron Rothschild. Their first encounter had been a glove fight ; this time it was a bare knuckle contest. Underhand Tactics Mitchell did much better on this occasion, taking Sullivan 39 rounds before the contest was declared a draw. Both men claimed to have had the better of things, with Sullivan probably having the stronger claim. Mitchell had certainly avoided the champions heaviest punches, but his survival also involved underhand tactics. He had repeatedly gone to ground without being hit, frustrating Sullivan's efforts to finish him off. Back in the USA, Sullivan finally agreed to a showdown with his other big rival, Jake Kilrain. It took place in Missisippi, on a baking hot day in July 1889. It was a bare knuckle-contest fought under the London Prize Ring Rules. It would be the last heavyweight championship fight conducted under such rules, and the two men made it a contest to remember. Two hours and 16 minutes after the pratogonists squared up to each other, Kilrain's corner threw in the towel(or his seconds threw in the sponge as it was called those day). Their man was out on his feet at the end of the 75 rounds that the fight had lasted. The battle of the two belts had been decided in the champions favour, but it had been a bruising attritional battle. It would be three years before Sullivan would put his title on the line again. In that time, the champion lived life to the full, and also set a precedent that many of his sucsessors would follow by taking to the stage. Apart from the boxing that was incorporated into his theatrical role, Sullivan fought only exhibition bouts during this three-year period. One of these matched him against James Corbett, the two men sparring for four rounds in full dress suits in May 1891. The following year, on sept 7th 1892, they met again, this time for real. Despite being a month short of his 34th birthday, unfit and grossley overweight, Sullivan went into the fight as hot favourite. But his 10-year, vice-like hold on the championship was about to be broken by a man who was younger, fitter and who elevated ringcraft to a completely new level.
While I'm not disagreeing with Sullivan being scientific, but M'Auliffe was his close friend, so at least his words should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Not just McAuliffe as you probably know. Donovan for example also described Sullivan as a scientific type. It should also be noted that McAuliffe had a tendency to favour scientific fighters. His Top 3 all time heavyweights in the mid 30s- 1. John L Sullivan 2. Gene Tunney 3. Jim Corbett
Like I said, I'm not disgareeing with the statement itself. But McAuliffe really couldn't be very objective about Sullivan. Despite being able to see what state John L. was in for the Corbett fight, he still wanted to bet all of his money on him to the last cent. Yes, he was venturesome, but that's just too much, to consider him objective when speaking about Sullivan or Jack Dempsey, for example.
SuzieQ, that first clip you showed is NOT Fitz or Jeffries. It is a reenactment of two other boxer/actors made in attempt to fool the public and make some money. That Corbett clip was made MANY years after Corbett retired, I do believe, and was just them clowning around and having fun, as they often did for the films back then. If you watch Corbett in actual fights with Courtney and Fitzsimmons, you'll see the difference, which is marked. If you really want to know what they said about Sullivan during his reign, read John L. Sullivan: The Career of the First Gloved Heavyweight Champion, which some posters here have done.
sullivan was also mentioned by a sporting man, ie a gambler who often have a better clue about fighters than sportswriters, after all they're betting their money so they better know what they're seeing claim that john l. was better than anyone he'd seen back to hyer, which would include yankee sullivan, unless he was talking about hyers 1841 bout. it's difficult to evaluate these guys because even the primary newspaper accounts differ wildly, as anyone who has apollacks books would know. only with the advent of film in the 1890's can we potentially evaluate them, and even then the film is low quality compared to what we see today.
I've always been interested in Sullivan. What is, without a doubt, the best and most informative book on Sullivan that is available right now?
To be honest with you, it just looked like Sullivan was doing a slower version of what everyone else was doing. He just had a more convincing look on his face while doing it. That is what fighters of that time period looked like. Check out a little Greb footage: http://youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3Q I think that when you study these fighters, you have to keep in mind the time they fought in. In making head to head match-ups; I believe that you have to pretend that if fighters from different eras fought, you must also pretend that they would have been using similar training and technique.
If you want to know about his fight career, a detailed discussion of his opponents and bouts, round by round, based on next day local newspaper reports, then get John L. Sullivan: The Career of the First Gloved Heavyweight Champion.
I have this clip on video as part of a Jack Johnson tape and thought I was alone in feeling impressed by the Boston Strong Boy in this precious window into the past! Every time I see it, the old man gains my respect with the fluidness and proper leverage on that huge right that a great old champion would show. For good measure, he looks regal and like someone who shouldn't be messed with.
BIG DEE HERE= I tend to think highly of him more than I did thirty years ago as I studied more into his background over the past yrs. One thing that comes to the forefront is his naming of the greatest fighter he ever saw. To the fans of little knowledge about the man who thinks he was a total racist which he wasn`t. He didn`t like Johnson not because he was black well not entirely but because he was an *******. Johnson treated people like dirt and that includes his own people. The fight fan today thinks of him as a hero but the general black population of the times hated Johnsons guts. He treated woman as disposable objects and regularly beat the ones that were with him. THIS IS FACT NOT IMAGINATION. JOHN L. SULLIVAN THOUGHT THE FINIST AND GREATEST FIGHTER HE EVER SAW WAS ( THE OLD MASTER ) JOE GANS AS SULLIVAN SAID GANS DID THINGS THAT HE WISHES HE COULD HAVE DONE BUT WASN`T GOOD ENOUGH TO DO.