Anyone see '79 Larry Holmes losing a classic matchup? I don't!

i'm asking for a beating with this one burt but what great fighters DID dempsey beat? i know he fought some good ones but his reputation is built on wins over willard (good but not great and he was aided by constantly jumping his man while barely off the mat) and firpo (a wonderful, wild brawl with one of the most limited heavyweight title challengers in the pre war era). other than that he met his match with willie meehan and dominated a collection of very good fighters. i just can't think of a prime, great fighter whe took. tunney's dominating wins, including the second fight, unfortunately took place after dempsey's prime. even if they occurred 5 years earlier though, i still don't see him winning

 

Ali of the 60's would beat Holmes. Ali of the 80's a toss up. Any other HW I can Holmes beating them at his best.

 

Ali of 67 and Tyson of 87 are definite favorites. Tyson had Holmes number and said that he probably would've been able to beat Holmes at 16. He knew his flaws and Cus designed him to be able to handle Holmes if the day ever arose.

 

Jorodz, You are making valid points, about Jack Dempsey's opponents...I have posted this before,that I concede that overall Ali had possibly better contenders than Dempsey had...We all know all of Ali's top foes,such as Liston, Frazier, Foreman,Patterson etc..They are very impressive, as we all know...Now this is a roster of Demsey's opponents...Jess Willard,Carl Morris,Bill Brennan,Fred Fulton,Arthur Pelkey, Gunboat Smith,Luis Angel Firpo, Tommy Gibbons,Gene Tunney, etc. Many ot Dempsey's opponents were as large or larger than even Ali's,foes such as Fred Fulton [kod Langford],Gunboat Smith,[kod Langford],Arthur Pelkey,Carl Morris, both 220 pounders., Tommy Gibbons,[kod a great Kid Norfolk], Firpo,crude but a powerful puncher,if he landed, etc. By and large , not as well known as Ali's better opponents, but some real top fighters...Dempsey , in his prime totally destroyed most of them...Except for Tommy Gibbons a small but all time great fighter in his prime, and Gene Tunney A truly great fighter, a rusty ,and 3 year retired Dempsey lost to...As I said before what I have read, many, many years ago about the young, pantherlike, left hooking, Dempsey, leads me to believe that he would have licked Ali,both at their best...My opinion only....

 

Sharkey was great if somewhat eratic.

Gibbons was great, though in part due to his work at light heavyweight.

Miske was great, again in part due to his work at light heavyweight.

Levisky was obviously a great light hevyweight.

There are those who would argue that Gunboat Smith was great pound for pound as well.

 

you're right (as usual) and there were some names i didn't even think of but that's kinda the point: the only great heavyweight he beat was sharkey, who by all accounts was dominating dempsey before the knockout (which should have been a DQ lose).

we can probably add carpentier to his tally but again, a much smaller man.

dempsey's record against heavyweights is quite weak

 

i can totally see where you're coming from and as janitor has also shown, i've underestimated dempsey's resume. i still believe it stands quite below ali's but the descriptions of dempsey in his prime were of a fantastic fighter, boundless energy, economy of movement, speed and power. but the fighter we have seen on film is slightly past prime and shows flaws. still his resume at heavyweight for an all time great is lacking. i wish we could have seen him take on more quality heavies: with the exception of gunboat smith I would say his best opponents were smaller.

I'm also a little harsh on him because he had 3 all time greats in wills, greb and langford that he could have fought but avoided for various reasons. despite the size difference, his legacy would have been enhanced by the latter two and would have grown greatly having taking on wills (who i feel could have beaten him)

 

Iron Mike would still beat him, and an Ali lat 60s maybe early 70s would have beat him

 

holmes 79 versus ali 71 would be one of the best, or worst, fights of all time

 

Jorodz,This is better than going the gym to spar...A few rebutals...Harry Greb ,my idol, gave Dempsey hell, sparring with the mauler three times a few rounds...But I have read that Greb had told reporters ,that " Jack would kill me after a couple of rounds ", in a real bout...I have seen in the old Stillmans gym main eventers,boxing with inferior boxers, and taking a licking..Happens all the times...Don't mean a thing...Two other points you make...When Dempsey was champion, in 1919, Sam Langford was an old thirty six years of age, way past his best days no longer a serious contender.Langford about that time,was stopped by Fred Fulton, and Gunboat Smith, both who were kod by Dempsey...Besides as I posted before, when Dempsey and Wills were almost signed to fight each other in 1924 ,Langford was asked this question...Who do you pick thecwinnber of a Dempsey-Wills fight ? Langford was quoted as follows," My money is on Dempsey, who is the greatest fighter I ever saw ".This from Langford on the reputation of the Manassa Mauler, in his tigerish prime...One more point before I close...Wills I believe was catnip for the faster Dempsey,as Wills was tall and a plodder as Jack Sharkey and Paolino Uzcudun, would later prove, by both beating Harry Wills...You must judge Dempsey , and others, Louis and Ali included by their Prime years, even though through no fault of the great Dempsey,that there was no films , available to us fans, EIGHTY FIVE years later...Trust in those who saw him in his glory days, not of the RUSTY and aging Tunney fights...Hope I made my case more plain...

 

you certainly did and then some:!:

langford, you're right, was past his prime and no real danger to dempsey.

i'd never heard that greb quote before though and appreciate it: it certainly clears up at least harry's opinion on one of the greatest fights that never happened. the fact that greb doubted whether or not he could win is quite stunning. and telling to be fair

wills was slow and i wanted to say that he WOULD beat dempsey but i couldn't. i think he was the most viable threat during his true prime but you're likely right in that he didn't have the skills to keep a beast like dempsey off him. i, like many, rate him so highly because of his brawls with langford. but sam was a different animal from dempsey entirely. not better, not worse but different.

the dempsey of film is nothing like what you described and i've heard from others on here that the real jack was a sight to behold. if we are to judge greb by his unseen prime, we should bestow the same courtesy on jack i suppose.

one last thing: what do you make of meehan? did he just have jack's number or is there something we're missing?

great chatting with you burt:thumbsup

 

Jarodz, great chatting with you...Willie Meehan was a roly poly sturdy spoiler who boxed Young Jack Dempsey four times in FOUR ROUND bouts...Almost every or all boxing hall of famers , would havs lost decisions at the end of four rounds, against inferior opponents ,who in a regular ten round or more bout ,they would have certainly licked...Even in one hundred yard dashes, the top track stars, are often behind, until they hit the finish line, the winner...And so with Dempsey / Meehan 4 rounders...In a standard ten round bout ,even young Dempsey,would have caught up with Meehan, I have no doubt.It's the finish line that counts....A blip in Dempsey's career...Meaningless...

 

Ali Of 71 would of beat holmes, if you study tapes of both them 71 & 79 i'm sure Ali looks better.

Cocky & Confident Ali had it all, even with his loss to Frazier!!

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jarodz, one final thought...To see a peak at what Dempsey was when he was young,try this...On youtube, Dempsey vs Firpo clip...Watch the quick left hooks in close,Dempsey shoots like powerful bullets, with virtualy no punching space at #3 minutes and 52 secongs of the 9:38 second clip ..Awesome i think...3:52 seconds into clip...B.B.