Anyone Think Tiger Jack Fox Should Have FoughtLouis For Title?

Managers and promoters create fights not the fighters themselves.

 

Louis did fight Toles in an unofficial bout early on. Louis knocked him out in the 6th round. He may have fit in there with Louis's challengers but we must agree that he did not do anything exceptional to earn a title shot. An impressive heavyweight career nonetheless against mainly top opposition and he beat Arturo Godoy a number of times.

 

Exhibitions and sparring sessions mean absolutely jack. He did not fight Roscoe Toles. I'm on the same page as SuzieQ. Lem Franklin, Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray got short-changed and were far more deserving than Abe Simon in the rematch, Al McCoy, Gus Dorazio and Jack Roper. Not that fighters haven't slipped through the net over the years. I still think Louis title reign was phenominal and I think other fighters could have gotten a shot over the years as well, such as Nino Valdes during the Marciano and Patterson reigns or Bob Baker. Certainly Folley and Machen during Floyd's time at the top and can't see London getting a second shot at the crown either. So we can nitpick on just about anyones reign. Not picking on Louis - just commenting on the thread.

 

I could be wrong but I believe this was not an exhibition in the typical sense. Louis had signed to fight Carnera and there was a clause in the contract that forbid Louis from fighting prior to the fight. So this was set up in the gize of an exhibition although fought as an actual bout. Back years ago it was listed as a fight on his record. History short changed those fighters not Joe Louis. The devil is in the time line and understanding history.

 

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/fox-tiger-jack-12.jpg
http://static.boxrec.com/thumb/1/17/FoxTJ40.jpg/250px-FoxTJ40.jpg

Tiger Jack Fox was a beast. Wish Louis had fought him.

 

Joe Louis fought Roscoe Toles on April 27, 1935 at Flint, Michigan, and KO'd him in 6 rounds.

Nat Fleischer in the old Ring Record Books listed this as a fight.

Paul Gallico's totals of Louis fights going into the Schmeling fight also indicates Gallico thought of this as a real fight.

Now Joe Louis was never obscure, and his career was closely followed.

It is impossible for me to believe that the editor of the major boxing publication of the day, and also the top boxing writer, did not know which fights of Joe Louis were fights and which were not,

so I accept that this was a fight.

On the other hand, the New York Times considered the Johnny Davis fight in 1944 (a four round fight) to be an exhibition,

and so did Nat Fleischer.

All this makes more sense to me than the modern revisionists, who probably have no idea of the legal nuances of the definitions of "boxing exhibition" state by state in the 1930's.

 

I'm intrigued by this Roscoe Toles story. I must research this as I never considered it anything more than an exhibition. As for the Johnny Davis thing, can't understand how this made it into his record. Joe was on furlough from the Army, fighting ham and eggers in consecutive exhibitions across the country. Why choose this one to add to his record?

 

Johnny Davis--

truth is, nobody until boxrec considered the Johnny Davis fight anything but an exhibition.

Roscoe Toles--

I consider the old Nat Fleischer Record Books a better source than boxrec on an issue like this. Sure there were obscure fights that might have gone unnoticed by Fleischer and which can be uncovered by searching newspaper records, but Joe Louis was even before the Carnera fight a very well known fighter.

 

I wonder what good an "exhibition" would do. If Toles flattened Louis, the glow would certainly come off the gate for the Carnera fight regardless.

 

I do consider the Roscoe Toles-Joe Louis boxing match an official pro fight. I give Joe Louis credit for knocking Toles out. Toles was a good fighter. Boxrec needs to add Toles on Louis' resume.

 

If there was judges present at the exhibition, then technically it was a pro bout. That occurence came to Louis when he was world champion and the NYSAC put their version of the world title on the line when Louis fought 3-3 Johnny Davis, so in a technical sense Louis had 26 title defenses not 25. The same line of logic is still used to this day, Ruslan Chagaev fought some exhibitions with judges and they appear on his pro record, though he didn't turn professional for many more years. Same goes with Aaron Pryor Junior, whose "Toughman" style bouts forced him into the pros because some idiot put it down as a pro bout just because judges were there scoring the contest

 

I just did a little research on the Roscoe Toles thing and it was sort of a mixed bag. The fight actually took place 2 days earlier than what Ed Morbius thought, but his date gave me a good platform to start out with. On April 25, 1935 Louis knocked out Roscoe Toles in 6 rounds in Flint. 3 days earlier he knocked out Biff Bennett in 1 round. Both fights are scheduled for 6, which is strange because Joe was a a main event 10 round fighter. Bennett's fight makes it onto his record but Toles' does not. It states in the write-up that Joe raised his record to 20-0 after KO'ing Toles, which would be correct even including the Bennett fight. Was Toles a worthy opponent at this time? I would say no because he had, according to boxrec, a 4-4 record with 1 ND. I would say with the scheduled distance and being a relative novice at this time probably caused the issue. Push comes to shove I say it was a real fight too. There is no way you should recognize the Bennett fight, which was also disputed as a possible exhibition, and not the Toles fight. Moreover, according to the report, when Joe dropped Roscoe in the 2nd round Toles corner threw in the towel, but the referee kicked it back and resumed the fight, lasting until the 6th when Joe lowered the boom for good. In an exhibition, a ref - you'd think - would be on the side of caution, so I can't see him kicking the sponge back if his corner wished to end it. So guys, if I scoffed at this earlier, I apologise. I think it was a real fight. I think this needs to be added and the Jonny Davis fight needs to be withdrawn.

 

Louis' autobiography was wrong on the date. It was April 25, 3 days after his scheduled 6 with Biff Bennett.