Archie Moore vs Cleveland Williams

https://b0xrec.com/en/proboxer/115682
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Idiot.

 

Why do oppenents confirming his speed mean nothing in an argument about his speed?

 

Opponents that he couldnt beat... yeah thats akin to all of the “the best they fought” articles where great fighters claim some nobody they knocked out in three rounds in their third fight was a better puncher than some guy who sparked them out cold. Sorry but there is nothing in Williams record to suggest he was either very fast or some Tysonesque puncher and more to the point there is nothing on film that backs up this narrative either. People cling to this narrative because it supports the idea that Ali was a god and thats why he beat Williams so easily and that Liston was a tank who walked through fire to beat Williams. Neither narrative is true. Williams did nothing in the Ali fight but be a punching bag and folded remarkably easily against Liston to anyone with unbiased eyes. Id challenge anyone to watch the Liston fights and pay attention to how Williams fades and folds in less than three rounds despite taking very little punishment in return. He through his best punches, Liston didnt quit, and after primarily jabs Williams folds up like a cardboard box. A one handed Eddie Machen put up a more spirited fight against Liston than this supposedly fast monster puncher Williams. And again, this is all to say nothing of how Williams would fare against Frazier, a calibre of fighter Williams was never even competitive with much less able to defeat. When the best you can do is ba

 

The idea that Machen did better against Liston with "one hand" obviously bumps up against the fact that he had two hands when he faced Williams and couldn't beat him.

 

The truth is Williams was famously knocked out in his most important fights. The iconic “Williams photo” is one of him stretched out on the canvas. I think fighting Moore would make him just as famous. And there is a lot of evidence to support this.

 

Actually, unless you count his doomed world title shot at Muhammad Ali, his most important bout was probably the second Daniels fight. Daniels had just beaten WBA #1 contender Doug Jones and Williams needed this win to earn a fight with Terrell for the vacant WBA title. Williams won comfortably and earned that title fight, but missed out because of his gunshot wound.

 

So if Machen had said Williams was slow, you would discount that out of hand too?

 

I disagree, not because you think I want to, but because it isn’t logical.

This is because Jones losing to Daniels by split decision made no impact on Jones standing at all..Jones had previously beat Daniels anyway then went into his next fight with Chuvalo and was knocked out. and it was this result , Not the previous loss to Daniels, that was seen as the bigger impact result. A shock result. . Jones vs Chuvalo became the important fight. Not Jones vs Daniels 2.

By beating Daniels, Williams may have beat a guy (for the second time) who had previously scored a close win over a contender but he had also outpointed the man Karl Mildenberger had just knocked out. So It’s not important.

Daniels was on a bad run ever since he lost to Williams the first time. He lost to Jones the first time, then lost to foley, was knocked out by Mildenburger then Daniels drew to a 10 fight novice that Henry Cooper Kayoed 2 rounds. The unofficial AP scorecard actually had Jones beating Daniels the second time!

Daniels was Williams best win. It just was not important or a big fight. Cleveland Williams win over Terry Daniels for the Texas state title was just as good.

 

So Jones, the number #1 contender, losing to a lower level fighter "made no impact on Jones standing at all"??? Give me a pound of what you are on.

Really? Give me TWO pounds of what you are on.

The lengths you go to in order to denounce anything positive for Williams (or Liston and Foreman for that matter) border on the psychotic. Chokking stuff, just chokking

 

Chuvalos win over Jones launched Chavalos career because it was a knockout. Daniels win over Jones was not even decisive. The unofficial AP had Jones winning this rematch. Daniels had even been knocked out by Mildenburger.

at least Williams won the Texas State title against Terry Daniels after Daniels fought Frazier for the world title. For that reason it makes an equal impression to beating Billy Daniels a second time after he lost to mildenburger.

 

Of course it was important. Win, and Williams had a title shot. Lose, and the chance was gone. Your views on whether or not it was a good win don't change that.

That's obviously not the case, because Billy was a ranked contender and Terry wasn't.

 

Terry was a recent title challenger and Billy wasn’t. I remember Trevor Berbick got a shot at Thomas from his win over David Bey right after Bey lost to Holmes. Terrys first fight after his world title challenge was a similar loss to Williams. So I think it’s as good as anything Williams had so far as wins go. And there was a state title in it as well.

 

It's a decent win for an old man but Terry Daniels never belonged in the ring with Frazier. He mysteriously bobbed up into the WBA #10 spot shortly after Frazier announced the intention of fighting him. It was all pretty shameless, really.

 

Or course he wouldn't. He'd preach it as gospel.

 

Wrong yet again. As others have previously stated he won his biggest fight, aside from Ali.

Why do you only mention half the story? You conveniently left out the man who put him on the canvas was the greatest of all time on his best night. Doubtful anyone would've beaten him.

Nobody cares what you think. You're a joke

And nice to see you've yet again completely ignored my response to you and changed the subject.