Archie Moore vs Cleveland Williams

Excuse me? Lol some had less fights then Williams when they beat him! If he wasn’t “developed” he shouldn’t have been fighting. Period. He was obviously developed enough to beat the over 30 men prior to Bob. I’m taking about boxing experience. Some men start late some start early. They all had around the same amount of experience. Stop making excuses. Williams was an excellent fighter but face it he had his faults and failed against better competition often.

 

That means absolutely nothing. Dempsey had 30+ fights when he lost to Johnson and even more fights when he was knocked out in the first round by Flynn. Was he not green then just because he had over 30 fights? Such errant biased non-sense.

He wasn't supposed to be fighting Satterfield at all. As I've said he was a last minute substitute because Satterfield's scheduled opponent (Charley Doc Williams) was nowhere to be found. "Cleveland Williams a 20 year-old heavyweight with the potential ability of a champion, faces the first major test of his three year career tonight when he meets Bob Satterfield of Chicago in the feature 10-round bout at Miami Beach auditorium. Satterfield, a far more experienced fighter is a 7-5 favorite."

"Williams took the Satterfield match on short notice replacing Charley Doc Williams after the latter pulled out of the match."
"His fighter is in perfect physical condition but has had very little sparring. Cleveland has done pretty of road work since beating Jones two weeks ago but did not do any sparring until Sunday."

"but Chris (promoter Dundee) was in a hole and I decided to take Satterfield. I'm as anxious to see this one as you are."

"So we took the gamble. I know Satterfield is a helluva puncher and he's got a big edge in experience."

Source: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=MkRCSU1TY1dfWFJSMWhVRUc4dTBWNWN5dzF2SXBB"

This is factually incorrect. All of these men were comfortably older than Williams (some by over a decade) and had all been boxing for far longer, and had far more experience. Denying this when the facts are right in front of your face is not only idiotic but plain dishonest.

 

Some were only two years older or three lol. You’re really reaching. And I’m not even biased against Cleveland lol. He was a good fighter. He just wouldn’t ever beat A prime Archie.

 

Whether he would beat Archie or not is not the point in this sub discussion. Your claim was that multiple men had "around the same experience" as Williams when they faced Satterfield.

I broke each one down individually and showed that not only were they older (in many cases much older) but ALL of them had far more experience when they faced Satterfield then Williams did. Their is no getting around this. You've backed yourself into a corner. You're left with 2 choices. You can concede that you were wrong or stand by your proven false notion and continue to be intellectually dishonest.

 

Age is not experience. Fights is experience. And about half had less experience when they beat Satterfield. I don’t know how this is hard to understand? You saying I’m in a corner is not accurate. Nor is ur statement that they were more experienced. Like I stated some were only a year and half to three years older then Williams. Some older but age doesn’t matter experience in the ring matters.

 

Some may have had less PROFESSIONAL fights but had all been fighting prior to their pro careers for quite some time unlike Williams who never had any amateur career. They also weren't LAST MINUTE SUBSTITUTES which you've failed to address.

Yeah I've wasted my time talking to you if you actually believe this. Even Choklab the biggest detractor of Williams will say that Williams was not fully developed at 20 years old.

 

"Cleve don't fool around. He crushes their bones with either hand. He's knocked fifty guys deader than cow meat, and he broke one poor feller's back -- put him on crutches for the rest of his life."

 

Yeah, knocked em deader than cow meat in the minds of a few deluded fanboys who fantasize about his physique and not what he actually did in the ring. His list of KOs over anyone worth a **** is as thin as wet tissue paper.

 

Roy Harris (who fought Sonny Liston and sparred with Cleveland Williams), calls Cleveland Williams his most dangerous and toughest opponent was "when I sparred with Cleveland Williams." http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

"But at one point in his career, he would have spelled real problems for Ali, because at his height as a puncher, Cleveland Williams hit harder than Liston. Before he got shot, the man was awesome But afterwards, he wasn't much of a fighter.. " Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=DfcPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq="williams+hit+harder+than+liston"&source=bl&ots=U_vhYf34f8&sig=ACfU3U0-9tFME4JqtaE-xx34tjfj1d-8XA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqlYTguIHqAhUeRDABHQPoDhYQ6AEwAXoECAMQAQ

Ernie Terrell (Who fought Williams twice and sparred with Liston)
His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en
:"He was the strongest fighter I ever fought"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion
"His left hook is poison."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en
"I fought Williams (Cassius Clay's Monday night victim Cleveland Williams twice and I thought that man hit harder than even Liston. But the years were very much on Clay's side." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57503132/calgary-herald/

Sonny Liston:......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
"He hit as hard as I could."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ

"two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news/
Why don't you go tell all these men what they got wrong?

 

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57503352/the-age/

 

@ecto55 Do you have any idea which opponent of his had their back broken and required crutches for the rest of their life?

 

I’m gonna say it. Williams had the potential to be an ATG. He had it all; size, speed, power, skills. Just a shame a lot of things didn’t line up. Nobody wanted to fight him, poor management, and getting shot partially paralyzing him probably didn’t help matters.

 

I agree his ring IQ wasn't the best and this would cost him a lot of fights against ATGs. This is most apparent in his bouts with Liston. When he was hurt, he desperately needed to clinch BUT HE CONTINUED TO SLUG WITH SONNY ****ING LISTON, by the time he realized that wasn't the best option, he attempted to run away, only to back himself into a corner. That being said he went 12 with a peak Machen who was known as quite a clever boxer, and held him to a draw that most (including the AP and one judge) felt he'd won handily. He'd presumably had to have a few tricks up his sleeve.

 

Lol