Archie Moore vs Cleveland Williams

To tough for Williams? Despite Bivins having less fights than Williams, he had nearly 5 times as many losses. Oh yeah and they were in different divisions. Williams also outweighed him by around 50 pounds! Don't be silly!

I wonder why they weren't heavily regarded at all. Despite being relatively unknown both managed to beat Archie Moore (the former in one round)

yeah it can't possibly be that you're overrating Moore in order to degrade Williams, and by extension Liston (literally EVERYBODY sees this)

You think Williams was better than somebody? Who are you and what have you done to Choklab?

 

It is well known that Williams supporters excuse his lack of knockout wins over elite men whilst at the same time showing off that he had more wins at a lower level. And here you are endorsing it!

50 pounds heavier than Bivins? how heavy do you think Williams was for goodness sake? You are arguing long and hard, championing a fighter over champions, and you don’t even know how heavy he is? Bivins was considered by some as the interim heavyweight champion whilst Louis was in the army. For a large part of his career Bivins regularly scaled between 183-189, sometimes over 190. Williams was knocked cold for several minutes giving away 25lb and since he never weighed more than 214 before he took a bullet that is well within Bivins bracket.

Archie Moore beat top heavyweights like Bob Baker, Nino Valdes, Clarence Henry, Satterfeild, hatchet man Shepherd, Jimmy Bivins, Karel Sys, Charlie norkus, Bob Albright, Roger Rischer, Radmacher, Lavorante.

When did Williams beat men as good as Bob Baker, Clarence Henry And Nino Valdes?

well I don’t think mike Bruce was the only guy Williams was better than. I also know Williams was a lot better than James Willy, baby booze, candy ass McDaniels and Graveyard Walters as well. Of course he was better once against Ernie Terrell but lost the rematch. He outpointed Ted Gullick and Terry Daniels. So he presumably was better than those guys. Then he did draw with a contender once as well. So he wasn’t that bad. Just not as good as Archie Moore was at heavyweight. Because he didn’t knockout enough name guys.

 

Yeah that is a good heavyweight Resume.

Bob Baker, Nino Valdes, Clarence Henry were the best.

I would also include maxim, Johnson and Satterfield on account of how many top heavyweights they were responsible for beating and for making the heavyweight top ten.

I would certainly also include Charlie norkus, Bob Albright, Roger Rischer and the Olympian Radmacher because he beat Chuvalo.

but as you quite rightly say, hatchet man Shepherd, Jimmy Bivins, Karel Sys, And Lavorante were excellent wins too.

 

Archie would take Cat to school kinda like Lavorante

 

I cant see how they can be included because they were light heavies when he beat them!
Lavorante was a one hit wonder Sys wasnt that special.Sheppard was a legitimately dangerous opponent with his monster right hand.Rademacher naah!

 

Maxim,Satterfield ,and Johnson were light heavies when he beat them.Albright was a journeyman,Rischer a 15-5-2 2nd rater Rademacher? Naah a joke, ko'd in his previous 2 fights..Lavorante was a one hit wonder.Sheppard was a dangerous man. Sys was never more than a fringe contender a Euro level fighter.
Moore has legitimate wins over some class heavies, he doesn't need inflated wins over second raters,

 

Maxim And Johnson were extremely good HWs. I can see how you wouldn’t count them just more of an opinion thing. Hardly think 1 pound makes a difference and should discount two awesome wins from a resume. They were both top 25-50 HWs ever. Satterfield was more of the top stepping stone guys but also a nice win. Oh yeah also. Looked up some of Archies power stats and although the power does drop slightly from LHW to HW his power rankings still fall within the top 30 percent ever...pretty good.

 

None of the underlined were ever top heavyweights in fact,none were ranked when Moore beat them.

 

They were not HEAVYWEIGHTS when Moore beat them,hence they do not count!

 

Didn’t Harold Johnson beat Eddie Machen ten months before he drew with Cleveland Williams?

Didn’t Joey Maxim beat Jersey Joe Walcott and Floyd Patterson?

Surely On this basis, Maxim and Johnson, by beating top heavyweights must qualify as a threat at heavyweight?

Then there is Bob Satterfeild who flattened Bob Baker and creamed Nino Valdes. Certainly these are heavyweight results?

Archie Moore beat Maxim, Johnson and Satterfeild didn’t he?

 

Like I said previously I understand if you don’t want to count them. But I’m certainly counting them lol. I don’t think one pound difference would change any of the outcomes

 

• Johnson was 181lbs for Machen .Those others you mentioned were heavyweight results but the wins Moore had over those others named were not since they weighed in inside the light heavyweight limit!
• It's that simple!

 

Moore v Johnson
173 172.5
175 174.5
173.75 175
172.5 174.5
172 172
Moore v Maxim
174.5
175
174.5

Moore v Satterfield
167 V 175

 

I’m with @Gazelle Punch on this, we understand why you don’t count them but we can still count them.

After all, these light heavyweights all made an impression on the heavyweight division by beating leading fully fledged heavyweights.

Archie beat Satterfield, Johnson and maxim as a light heavyweight when they were all light heavyweights and together they all moved up and beat important heavyweights.

 

Not even going to respond to this because it's untrue and bull**** just like everything you post when it comes to Liston and his opponents.

Bivins was in the 170s and 180s for most of his career while Williams was in the 210s and 220s for most of his career.
sometimes over 190.

Again. You never want to mention:
1. Satterfield was possibly one of the hardest punchers of all time.
2. Williams was 20 years old.
3. Williams had 2 days to train for the bout

Wrong yet again. He was over 214 against Liston, Banks, and Terrell.

I'd say Terrell was better than all those men listed. But that's beside the point. I never argued Williams had a better resume. My argument was that Moore lost to fighters of a lower quality than Williams so a Williams victory is not out of the realm of possibility as you're putting it out to be by saying "Williams gets KTFO like he always did" which is completely untrue and fabricated bull****.