Archie Moore's Credibility

I'm quite wary of what Moore says. He was also quite backward in coming forward about Ezzard Charles talents, a guy that beat him three times.

 

The man had 215 plus fights give him a break lol. Idk he was a showman even prior to retirement. Hell of a fighter though.

 

It is not uncommon for a fighter to be inconsistent. Sometimes they tell the truth, sometimes what saves face. Braddock says that Baer hit harder than Louis, Holmes that Shaver hit harder than Tyson, etc. And yet, we all see which punched knocked these guys out.

Also, Moore was quite a showman. There obviously was no longcount, as Marciano popped right back up, more embarrassed than hurt, but if Dempsey got a longcount go against him and it enhanced his mythology, then Moore wanted one too.

 

The predecessor of George Foreman in this regard.

 

Foreman was his disciple

 

Just like Bowe was Carnera's stylistic disciple

 

Moore never said Marciano was the hardest puncher he fought, since he wasn't. Marciano was the strongest in the sense that Marciano could get you in the position he wanted you in and keep you there. Charlie Goldman himself even admitted that both Johansson and Bonavena had more 1 punch power than Marciano, but neither were as conditioned or as strong on the inside as Marciano.

Also, as a huge Frazier fan Marciano overall was a superior fighter to Frazier. Marciano was better conditioned and was much harder to hit. Frazier had a better left hook than Marciano, but often left himself wide open to counter rights and uppercuts. Joe Frazier himself admitted that at his best after beating Ali that he could only see Joe Louis himself or Marciano beating him and his coach agreed.

Moore and Joe Louis prepared Foreman for Frazier and both admitted Frazier would be easy work, since Frazier likes to get in his preferred spot before throwing his left hook. Every time Frazier would get there Foreman was instructed to push him off balance. Louis worked on Foreman's uppercut, which he said would be the key to getting Frazier out early and it did.

Marciano could adjust much better than Frazier. Moore put him down and after the knockdown Marciano would crouch to the side in order to keep from getting hit and punched out of the crouch. Also, Marciano's parrying skills neutralized all of Moore's offense on the inside. Marciano did the same thing to Shkor, who tried to maul Marciano and slowly took a brutal beating from Marciano. Byrd used this strategy against Vitali with great success, but unlike Marciano Byrd didn't use it as effectively and couldn't match Marciano timing or punch volume. Byrd's defense was also sloppy compared to Marciano's.

Also, Moore's age is a complete mystery. I've seen birthdates ranging from 1913 to 1919. He was most likely 8-10 years older than Marciano.

 

Moore saying Marciano was the strongest man he ever fought doesn't contradict him choosing 3 other guys as being harder hitters.Carnera and Valuev are likely two of the strongest men ever to box,you can throw in
Gene Paul Anderson too .None of them were big punchers at all. The referee began a standing 8 count and quickly realised it was waived for title fights.Marciano himself thought he was entitled to one and started towards the ropes expecting to get one.He said this in an interview with Peter Wilson after the fight.
It looked like a flash knockdown but Rocky said he was ,"buzzed and blacked out for a couple of seconds". When you are hit solid, you don't think," hang on this guy has only a * ko % that couldn't have hurt that much!"
Joe Louis was hit by some serious punchers, he is on record as saying the hardest punch he ever received came from Al Delaney.
I reckon the recipient of the punch knows better than us, watching some grainy film footage, who hit him the hardest!
NB Moore said he was 38 ,his Mother said he was 40.

 

Louis had no imput in the training of Frazier.
The extent of his involvement was as a paid PR man.

"There were a few among the fight crowd who did give Foreman a chance. One of them was heavyweight great Joe Louis, who'd been lured from the golf course to come to Kingston and help promote the fight, presumably to encourage the notion of a competitive bout. "He's always in front of you," said Louis, describing Frazier, "and he's easy to hit." Angelo Dundee, Ali's trainer, was another. He was on hand, as if to safeguard his investment, but he was growing increasingly worried as the fight drew closer. "I'm rooting for Frazier," he said, "but I've got this feeling Foreman will win. Why? Because he has all the attributes to beat Frazier's style. He's got a jab like I've never seen on a heavyweight since Sonny Liston. He has a strong left hand. I mean strong. He can stop a man in his tracks."





Marciano had a better defence than Byrd? Yeah right.

 

Marciano was much harder to hit than Frazier. I'm not sure about that.

I've never seen Marciano be as slippery a target as Frazier was in his first fight with Ali.

Admittedly after that fight Frazier never seemed anywhere near as hard to hit.

 

If Braddock said Baer hit harder than Louis then I'll believe him. There's much more that determines the outcome of a fight than punching power.

If you assume that Louis hits harder than Baer because Louis knocked Braddock out and Baer didn't then that would also mean that Ali hit harder than Frazier because Ali knocked out Foreman and Frazier couldn't.

If Louis hits harder than Baer simply because he did what Baer couldn't and knocked Braddock out then I suppose you would also have to say that Braddock hit harder than Baer because Braddock knocked Louis down and Baer didn't.

 

Lou Nova always claimed Baer was the hardest hitter who ever lived.

 

This is a great post. I'm surprised about your opinion on Byrd's defense though. Could you explain that further?

 

Louis hit Braddock hard enough to push his teeth through his mouthpiece into his lips.Braddock said of the ko."I couldn't have gotten up for a million dollars."